MegaStar & Witness 10mm

[LESchwartz]

My dad had a NIB Star MegaStar 10mm which I sold off for him about 20 years ago.  At the time, most 10mm loads were being downloaded to 40S&W levels, and 10mm pistols looked like they were on their last legs at the time, so I didn't think to keep it.  Silly me.

These days 10mm seems to be making a resurgence for use as a sidearm in the woods.  I got back in the game by purchasing a Springfield XDM in 10mm early last year.  However, I really wanted to land a high capacity, steel frame pistol built for a steady diet of full power 10mm loads.  I considered one of the many 1911s, but the limited single stack capacity is a downer -- as is the rumors that they will shoot themselves apart on the hottest loads.  Similar durability stories abound for the Tanfoglio / EAA Witness, though the newer "large frame" 10mm models are supposed to have fixed this issue when compared to to old style "small frame" 10mm models of a number of years ago.  Sig 220s are expensive and single stacks (8 rounds).

I just made a purchase on a used MegaStar 10mm.  It's inbound as we speak and I have high hopes . . .

Larry

(click to enlarge)

[LESchwartz]

Just for grins, here's some links to some 10mm threads we've had over the past years:

"10mm Bear Loads":  https://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=153432.0
"40 versus 10":  https://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=153130.0
"Tell me about 10mm":  https://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=81062.0
"The 10mm Debate":  https://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=77692.0

Information page about the MegaStar:  http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/megastar/index.shtml

Larry

[LESchwartz]

Similar durability stories abound for the Tanfoglio / EAA Witness, though the newer large frame models are supposed to have fixed this issue.

I found a large frame witness in 10mm at Bass Pro and decided to pick it up!  I owned a small frame model back in the day, but sold it when I sold off my dad's megastar.

I have high hopes that I will be happy with one of the three full size 10mm pistols I now own.  In any case, the steel pistols should be able to take a steady diet of full power loads.  In addition, the extra weight should help tame the full power recoil.  As I mentioned above, I'm not so sure the same can be said about 10mm 1911s or other competition oriented steel 10mm pistols I'm seeing these days.

As for the polymer pistols, I have even less confidence in their durability with full power loads over time -- and that includes the XDM I already own.  And as for Glocks, I didn't like the idea of the unsupported chamber or the need for an aftermarket barrel for use with hard cast.  My thinking is that the current crop of "tactical" 10mm pistols are in no way capable of handling a stead diet of FULL power 10mm loads -- despite what the Glock fanboys may assert.

Larry

(click to enlarge)

[LESchwartz]

Editorial:

Here's a great video from the late Paul Harrel about 10 versus 40 ammo:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwXJ2yhfnU.

Note that in the video, the conclusion is that some 10mm loads barely edge out .40 S&W -- even in the premium brands.  In fact, muzzle energies can range from the mid 400s to the mid 700s.  Quite a range.  For brands comparisons, see:  https://ammo.com/ballistics/10mm-ballistics.

So what's the conclusion?  If the intent is to feed your 10mm pistol a steady diet of lower power loads, most any pistol will do.  However, if your intent is to feed your 10mm pistol a steady diet of "full power" loads, you'll have to be allot more particular about your pistol.  So will your polymer frame (or even 1911-style) pistols take a steady diet of 10mm loads?  Certainly they will, especially if those loads are of the "downloaded" variety.  Will they take a steady diet of full power loads?  Well, now your in YMMV territory.

This is where I'm going to torque off a bunch of Glock / 1911 / P320 fanboys:  Such pistols might shoot themselves apart on a steady diet full power loads -- in fact, there are enough reports from around the web to throw suspicion on all but the stoutest of 10mm pistols.  For example of the three 10mm handguns I own, I am only confident in the Megastar's ability to handle a lifetime of full power loads.

As always, YMMV . . .

Larry

[LESchwartz]

 . . . it's all coming back to me now and I'm starting to remember why I sold off my small frame 10mm Witness all those years ago . . .

It turns out the issue is the way the guide rod connects into the frame.  The lack of metal at this point can cause battering and eventual failure of the frame.  However in the years since, Henning has started selling an improved guide rod that distributes the force across a large area and prevents full power loads from battering the frame.  I'm kind of surprised that in the interviening 20 years Tanfoglio didn't just update the guide rod when they updated the 10mm frame size.  Oh well, $40 for a new guide rod wasn't that bad . . . I was already ordering some heavier Wolfe recoil springs anyway to play around with.

To see exactly what I'm talking about, see the photos and video linked below.

Larry

Video (see 4:35 to about 7:00):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ7vFFB3rHY

[LESchwartz]

Observations:

The MegaStar is a big heavy pistol.  On the other hand, the Witness isn't to far behind.  However, the Megastar appears to be the best of my pistols when it comes to full power 10mm loads.  Here are a couple points:

1) The Megastar has *three* locking lugs, while the Witness only has two.  The XDM only has a single locking surface on the ejection port.

2) Both the Megastar and the Witness have full length rails.  The XDM has partial rails typical of polymer frame handguns.

3) As shown in the previous post, the guide rod connection on the Witness needs some help.  However, my new guide rod is very good and should make this aspect of the the Witness fully capable of handling the hottest 10mm load.  On the Megastar, the connection is made via the hardened takedown pin and a reinforced frame -- very solid.  The XDM has a decent guide rod stop as well -- though not as solid as the MegaStar.

4) The XDM has a captive guide rod spring.  Neither the Witness's nor the Megastar's is captive.

5) The Witness does not have a decocker -- I think Tanfoglio has them as an option, but EAA never imported any this way.  The Witness safety blocks the firing pin.  However, the hammer cannot be lowered with the safety on, so extreme care will be needed when lowering the hammer.  The manual implies the Witness can be carried "cocked-n-locked"  The Megastar does have a decocker.  The safety retracts the firing pin and the hammer can also be lowered while the safety is on.  The manual says the the Megastar should not be carried "cocked-n-locked"  In either case the pistol will need to be pointed in a safe direction when lowering the hammer in case of a mechanical failure, etc.  The XDM is a typical striker fired duty gun without a traditional safety -- though it has a grip safety.

6) The Megastar's safety lever is backwards of a traditional pistol.  Very unfortunate!

7) Extra magazines are almost impossible to find for the Megastar.  Also very unfortunate!  Both the XDM and the Witness have plenty of mags available.  Note that it might be possible to modify Witness mags to work in the MegaStar -- I'll post back here if I figure out how to make this happen.

I have a pile of MagTech 10mm ammo inbound and will post some shooting observations once I get to the range.  This ammo is listed at 180 gr and 605 ft-lb of muzzle energy -- both of which are close to the high end of the 10mm range.

Larry

PS:  Here's another independent review of the MegaStar:  https://www.bobclevenger.com/Megastar.html.

[LESchwartz]

Back From the Range

Spent yesterday afternoon at the range with a buddy and my three 10mm pistols.  My conclusion is that any of the three pistols would be sufficient for my needs.  After 250 rounds, here are some observations:

1) Megastar -- Heavy (50 oz.) with the lightest recoil of the three.  Not as accurate as expected, but I noticed that the front sight was slightly loose.  Ergonomics was the big downside:  As expected, the goofy safety was a hassle -- unusable without a second hand.  Also as expected, the grip was portly even for my large sized hands.  (My smaller handed buddy hated the grip.)  The pistol has no undercut on the trigger guard, hence my pinky hung down and rubbed against sharp edge of the magazine floorplate.  If I am able to get Witness mags to function in the Megastar, this should no longer be an issue -- but that's a really big if.  The pistol turned in a flawless performance.  Overall score:  3 1/2 out of 5.

2) Witness -- Lighter (42 oz.) than the Megastar, with slightly harsher recoil.  Amazingly accurate, with my getting fist sized groups at 10 yards without much effort.  Great ergonomics, with the pistol comfortably fitting in both shooters hands.  The safety also worked effortlessly without either shooter having to break their firing grip.  The only issue was racking the slide, as the CZ75 styled slide doesn't provide much room to grip.  However, the slide was reasonable to release from the open position (via either the slide release or just tugging the slide and letting it go).  We did have two failure to feeds on the first two magazines, but after that additional magazines were flawless.  (Perhaps that was a break-in thing or maybe heavier magazine springs are in order.)  Overall score:  4 1/2 out of 5.

3) XDM -- Lightest (32 oz.) of all the pistols, with the harshest recoil -- though not as bad as one might expect.  I suspect this was due to the stellar ergonomics, with the pistol becoming a natural extension of either shooters hand.  I would note that my buddy just could get over the fact that the XDM didn't have an external safety -- not even the grip safety could assuage his concerns.  Accuracy for me was average.  The pistol functioned flawlessly.  Overall score 4 out of 5.

Larry

PS:  All weights are unloaded.

[Frisco Pete]

Thank you for your report. It was very informative and interesting. I feel lucky to have one 10mm. 3 is a feast!

You can see why I handload for the 10mm Auto. I can make my loads as hot as I dare and know what I have especially as I have a chronograph to verify velocity. Full-power 10mm loads usually are quite expensive so I really save money. I load some pretty warm practice rounds with a FMJ-FP bullet, and full power 180-gr and 200-gr Hornady XTP loads. I have a sprinkling of factory ammo in 10mm as well. Buffalo Bore Heavy 10MM Outdoorsman? with a 220-gr lead flat-nose bullet is the factory ammo I take in the woods if bears could be around. Im sure Ill never use it, but why not have some? This is Buffalo Bore?s biggest seller.

As you probably know, I have the XDM as well (4.5). It has been dead reliable and I like the ergonomics. I have a red dot on it and the trigger has been worked on by Powder River Precision, so it is very good. The other big thing Ive done to it was to go to a 22# Recoil Spring. This is a good idea if you are shooting heavy loads IMO. The standard spring rate is 18# if my memory is correct, same as .40 S&W. Powder River Precision offers 20# and 22# Wolff springs as options but only for 4.5 inch and longer XDMs. I know that Tim Sundles from Buffalo Bore suggests that if your empties are ejecting in an erratic pattern from a 1911-style 10mm, you should probably go to a heavier recoil spring.

Because the only reason I have a 10mm is for use on critters in the mountains and desert and I have to carry it around on me I like the lightweight of the polymer-frame XDM. So I am willing to put up with more recoil in order to have a pistol I dont mind packing all day on my body. I love the flat-shooting power and range of the 10mm a lot. Really, Im used to similar recoil from the .357 Mag or my hot-loaded .44 Special revolvers. It just takes a bit of familiarization if you havent shot anything like that for awhile.

So, I recently took my brother-in-law out shooting. He hasnt shot much and has a .380 Shield. I let him shoot my 9mm pistols and he did well. Then I pulled out the 10mm XDM to chronograph my latest load (different powder) and see if it was up to snuff. It was, so I let him shoot the XDM. He did okay, but really didnt care for the recoil of the 180-gr load we shot. I wasnt surprised even though I had no problem with it. Because he was shooting my other striker-fired pistols with internal safeties, he didnt think that was an issue. I know some people cant get over not having an external safety like old tech semi-autos had. I think we all know guys like that   

I like the 10mm. It is a serious round with real performance and it is fun to shoot serious rounds on occasion. I like the feeling of going from Wow!  on the first shot to  Oh yeah, Ive got this. This thing is awesome!  when you finish the box of ammo. 

[LESchwartz]

Got links for the springs?

Larry

[Frisco Pete]

For the XDM https://powderriverprecision.com/wolff-precision-recoil-springs-for-all-orginal-xdm-4-5-5-25-and-xd-mod-2-tactical/

For the EAA Witness you can go to Wolff Precision Gunsprings https://www.gunsprings.com/EAA/cID1/mID19/dID100#844
It looks like the factory spring is a 14# and they list others in the menu up to 22# in varying increments. 18#, 20#, and 22# are ones you can try. Fortunately they are cheap at $8.49 each. I?d try the 18# and 20# for sure.

I didn?t check the Megastar, but Wolff might have ones for them too. You know more about your gun models in the two steel guns than I do, but hopefully this will head you in the right direction.

[LESchwartz]

I purchased springs for the Witness when I purchased the new guide rod from Henning.  I haven't installed them yet.

Larry