Author Topic: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)  (Read 18187 times)

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murray

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Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« on: January 07, 2014, 11:25:08 AM »
Yes, we’ve received considerable Bad Press in the last few months, and well deserved unfortunately, as our Firing Pins have come to have a reputation of breaking. We apologize to all customers that have had this problem; and they have received free replacements; but rest assured, we have been addressing the subject.

We sent broken firing pins, and intact firing pins to a Metallurgical Lab and the test results indicate the following:

1-While the material met current minimal ASTM standards, it just barely met those minimums. Apparently we were sold some 3rd world country material from a new supplier and not only did they supply inferior material, but it was bent upon arrival at the machine shop, making it difficult to feed through the machine.

2-We had sold more FPs than usual during a particular time period, and that caused us to rush to get material to get the next batch ready for delivery to customers. Because of the rush, we accepted their word that the material was good. We apologize for rushing the procurement of raw 420 SS stock.

3-The heat treating company we have used for 25+ years did not temper the firing pins correctly. Using standards set by the industry, but not tempering specifically to allow for greater impact resistance, left them at the correct Rockwell hardness, but somewhat brittle in nature. We apologize for not being more specific in our heat treat requirements.

4-The machine shop did not machine the correct radius at two locations on the firing pins, and stress risers were created as a result. While they have made several thousand of these in the past, apparently a small change was made, and it went unnoticed by us. We apologize for our in-house QC not catching this sooner.

First, we have changed the type of material we are making them from, and changed sources. Seems the 420 SS was not acceptable, especially when all that is available is “poor quality” stuff from a 3rd world country. Our next batch of FPs are being machined from 17-4 SS, and from this point forward we expect to stay with that material. And material specs have already been verified.

Second, we have chosen a specific heat treating temperature, and a specific time & temperature for tempering. This will afford us the ability to supply the best we can manufacture. And the Company now doing this supplies actual photo evidence of the processes.

Third, we have addressed the machining aspect with the machine shop, received samples proving they can hold the tolerances necessary, and set up new QC controls in our shop to verify.

Fourth, we have discontinued shipping these to customers and the remaining balance of the 420 SS Firing Pins have been scrapped.

We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience to our customers, and assure you we are doing all we can to remedy the situation, and make sure it never happens again. As always, our products are 100% satisfaction guaranteed, but we prefer to supply a product that never causes the customer to need that guarantee. While it is going to cost us a little more to manufacture these from 17-4 SS, our price to you is going to remain the same.

This new batch of 17-4 SS FPs should be available sometime during the last two weeks of January. Please let us know if this has affected you and we’ll do our best to resolve the issue. Unfortunately there is no way to accurately predict whether the firing pin you may have already purchased is defective or not, as the problems are extremely random, but there should be no safety issues, as when the FP breaks, the gun simply quits working.

As our Aeronautical Engineer of 26+ years told us, all 4 things combined to create the “Perfect Storm” of events, but the 3rd world manufacture of the material contributed greatly to pin failure.

Thanks,
Ben Murray

edited 10-29-14 Problem Solved!! See our post on page two.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 05:52:47 PM by murray »
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Adam7

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2014, 11:39:17 AM »
That great you guys stand behind your product. I'm glad you were able to track down what was causing the issues.
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running-man

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2014, 01:50:08 PM »
Good deal that you were able to track down the problem Ben!!  I'm sure it was maddening having a crop of failures pop up and be unable to tell your customers what the root cause was or give them an ETA for a fix.  17-4 PH steel is great stuff, I use it quite often in my designs in H1025 condition as it exhibits good strength and reasonable toughness there.

As with many design failures, the accumulation of several relatively insignificant variables together can add up to cause catastrophic failure (like what was found when they generated the Space Shuttle Challenger failure analysis report, a simple o-ring was ultimately responsible?!) 

Fixing any one of the 4 things you identified would likely adequately fix the problem relatively cheaply, but working to address all 4 of them really shows you're serious about putting out a quality product that will just plain work. :thumbup:

RUT

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 09:02:58 AM »
>>This new batch of 17-4 SS FPs should be available sometime during the last two weeks of January.<<

Since my bolt/carrier is presently in your hands I'll assume it will come back with the new & improved firing pin. Timing is everything! :-)

weasel

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2014, 09:47:47 AM »
Is there anything we can do to inspect our during pins to catch  a failure before it happens or is it a case of bang bang no bang?

mosnar85

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2014, 12:36:02 PM »
Thanks for the update, Ben, you are providing us with awesome stuff, thank you!

I am eagerly awaiting my updated FP. My Yugo is hungry! :)

Ghost225

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2014, 01:13:18 PM »
and this is why Ben is one of our vendors. Mistakes always happen but guys like Ben Murray make it right. They own BOTH their triumphs and mistakes.

Thanks Ben.

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murray

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 03:25:29 PM »
Thanks Ghost. And Yes Sir RUT, if your bolt & carrier are here now, it is going to be returned with this newest 17-4 FP. (sorry for the slight delay in return shipping)

Weasel, we wish there was some clue it might happen with any given FP, but that doesn't seem to be the case. A FP can last for several hundred rounds, then out of the blue it breaks. But you have an 85% to 90% chance the FP is going to be just fine.

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weasel

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 03:56:32 PM »
Thanks Ben.  Glad to see you stand behind your products too.  All vendors need to take note of this.  Actions like this it's how you guarantee repeat business.  I know I will happily buy your products again and certainly encourage others to do so as well.

RUT

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 06:31:10 PM »
Ben.. thanks for the update. Will look forward to receiving it!

===RUT===

Tornfeather

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 03:04:26 PM »
Yeah humans are imperfect, It's how you handle it that matters.
Do we know how far back this may have started?? I ask because My Murray's pin was purchased in June/July 2013
Do you think I'm in the effected time frame? Affected pins will fail relatively quickly, right? Several hundred rounds is still a pretty short life span.

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murray

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 01:01:20 PM »
Yes Sir, we agree. A FP should last for thousands and thousands of rounds. (if not hundreds of thousands) And we believe these new 17-4 SS FPs will do just that.

Tornfeather, we got the bad batch of material mid-2012, so yours could be suspect. But like you say, most reports are after just a relatively few rounds fired, so if it lasts a few hundred, you're probably good to go for many more rounds.

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oldjeeper

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 08:32:02 AM »
As anew member of this site I am pleased to read this post I am just now looking for info on the site & will be ordering a couple of your new pins. In this day & age it is refreshing to see such customer service ...Good Work...
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murray

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2014, 12:43:44 PM »
Thanks, and Thanks for the order.  :)

And for all those who have had to wait over the last few weeks, the New Batch of 17-4 FPs are here, and we'll be filling all orders and return shipping all bolts/carriers and barreled receivers, today and tomorrow. Some of you may receive yours as early as Saturday, the first of next week for everyone else. Thanks for everyone's patience!  =D&gt;

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If you feed it junk ammo, why should you expect filet mignon results? Well now you can, with our new "Neck & Throat" chamber reaming service!

rabbit212

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Re: Bad Press Re: Our Firing Pins (The Perfect Storm)
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2014, 10:14:55 PM »
Excellent vendor.  I have been wanting to purchase your firing pin for some time but the back and forth positive/negative reports that I had found always made me hesitate.  Usually you hear either nothing but positive reports with a few negative experiences or the complete opposite but in the case of your f.p. I kept hearing about equal good and bad and that just felt odd.  Very pleased that you have taken the time and effort to identify what the problem was and rectified it.  Well done.