Author Topic: Reloading Scales  (Read 1619 times)

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Rocketvapor

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Reloading Scales
« on: January 31, 2022, 01:09:35 PM »
Seems there isn't a consensus in the precision shooting world on just how much an accurate powder charge really matters.   
I hope this does not drift (pun intended) into a discussion of charge accuracy vs downrange performance on a target. 
You either think you need a super accurate charge weight, or NOT :)


With the cold weather and trapped inside I've been doing some testing on a few reloading scales.
An old Lyman 1000 beam scale and several Load Cell Digital Scales.
My beam scale is plenty good enough, and meets the accepted performance metric of "one kernal of Varget".
Dug it out, cleaned it up and YUP, still works.
Who needs better than that, those that auto dispense charges to +/- 0.02 grains?
Wow, +/- 0.02 grains.  What many don't realize is the native measuring unit of MOST digital scales is grams/milligrams, not grains.
Precision of a milligram indicating scale is a little better than 0.02 grains (one milligram is 0.0154 grains). 

I like using cheap digital scales, just to show that money doesn't necessarily mean accuracy. There are scales much better than the ones I'll review, usually out of my price range, and with problems I don't seem to have with my low cost approach.
A digital scale is also useful for those that weigh sort bullets, cases, and primers. 

A couple of old ones still performing just fine, and a new cheap 20 gram/0.001 milligram scale that reads sort of unbelievably FAST, and my most expensive one to date, ouch, an A&D FJ-54D2 dual range digital with resolution of 0.0002 grams (about 0.003 grains) up to 22 grams and a milligram up to 52 grams. 

So, off to the first review.  A 300 gram, milligram indicating, 300,000 count load cell scale bought Jan 2019, with a Make Offer ebay bid.

Ten 10 gram weights plus a one gram for 101 grams total.



Opened up to see the load cell.


A 3 year old video of the cheap 300gram scale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX6HEqgf4wk

The 3kg scale







« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 03:09:49 PM by Rocketvapor »
Well I guess my new **** stirrin paddle don't work . I got a like . WTF 😈

Flo just received her EXPERT Mid range card from the NRA.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/famed-ex-uss-john-f-003916449.html

Rocketvapor

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Re: Reloading Scales
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2022, 01:36:42 PM »
The most frequent complaint about digital scales is DRIFT.
Temperature (of the scale and the ambient air), drafts, and electrical interference cause reading errors. 

There are a few different areas to understand about digital scale errors, in addition to drift.

Let's start with ROLLOVER error.
The strain gage scales used by many start off with +/- 0.1 grain resolution. Any reading, even with a perfect digital scale can be between one half count below the reading to one half count above the reading. Half your desired +/-0.1 grain requirement is gone just because it's digital. If you consider the possibility that a zero can be off 1/2 count AND the charge can be off 1/2 count some charges can be off by as much as 0.1 grain before scale error come into play. A scale with better resolution, say 0.02 grain, still has this rollover issue, but it is smaller.

Calibration error. Note the shift to grams from grains. Your +/- 0.1 grain requirement is equal to about 0.00648 grams. That's + and - 6.48 milligrams.
Calibration, often performed at a value close to FULL SCALE, 50 grams on a 50 gram scale, has two primary sources of error.
The calibration weight itself and the stored digital calibration value. Full scale errors are typically percentage based and often insignificant at minor loads on the scale. A relatively large full scale error +/- 0.01 grams @ 50 grams is +/- 0.02%. That percentage of F.S. error is proportional throughout the range. 0.02% @ 5 grams is +/- 0.001 grams (+/- 0.015 grains) and won't be seen on most cheaper scales. The full scale value can drift, is sensitive to level and temperature, but isn't the most significant source of error with a digital scale. Linearity error, related to F.S. Is usually small at low loads.  To reduce linearity error with some scales have a programmed 3 point calibration. Helps reduce the span between zero and the calibration points.

Now the big one, ZERO ERROR.
Just because you have a ZERO indication doesn't always mean the scale is truly at zero. Most analog to digital converters (the electronics that produce displayed values have an 'Auto Zero' that will capture a few counts and display ZERO. This can change each time the scale indicates a value close to zero. The intent is to auto correct small errors in repeatability and drift. At large loads 20 to 40 grams on a 50 gram scale, this creates a negligible percent of reading error. At small loads 2 to 5 grams it is a much larger percentage. Auto Zero might be applied over and over causing several counts of error. Still looks like a zero, but it ain't.

Still reading?

My 300 gram, 0.001 gram scale uncorrected error makes it marginally useful for weighing charges. If zero drift could be monitored and corrected when greater than 1 or two counts (tared) then charge weights would be more accurate. How can you tell if the zero is wrong?

Start by letting the scale warm up BEFORE calibrating. Let the scale sit for a couple minutes after calibration to let the load cell relax after being loaded to large calibration loads, and Tare/Zero. Some battery powered scales will shut off after 2 or 3 minutes making it difficult to properly warm up and stabilize. The scale shown also has a rechargeable 6v, 2.5AH battery.
Now put a good 10 gram weight on the scale, outside your powder pan. A 10.000 gram indication should not interfere with reading charge weights. This is your new FAKE zero. Just watch it each time the empty pan is place on the scale.

You should check this with a couple of known good check weights. 2 grams will look like 12.000, 5 grams will look like 15.000. This prevents the scale from getting close to Zero and the Auto Zero from trying to alter the reading.
Referring to the picture below, Zero drift, Tare out drift, 10 gram fake zero, 2g added to FAKE zero, then 5g, and
5 grams plus 5mg.




If the 10.000 Fake zero changes by more than a couple counts, remove the 10 gram weight and tare the pan again.
Watching a 0.000 reading tells you nothing. Watching the 10.000 reading gives you a known starting point you can watch.


 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 02:42:36 PM by Rocketvapor »
Well I guess my new **** stirrin paddle don't work . I got a like . WTF 😈

Flo just received her EXPERT Mid range card from the NRA.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/famed-ex-uss-john-f-003916449.html

Rocketvapor

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Re: Reloading Scales
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2022, 02:49:10 PM »
Did a temperature drift run  couple days ago.
Cold weather keeps me inside, was in the low 20s.
Cold for south Louisiana.
So, here's what I did. Left scale on over night.
Measured temperature of steel base plate, bottom of scale. Overnight temperature in Kitchen=65F
Zeroed scale, add 1 gram, then add 10 gram, then 100 gram for total of 111.000.
Repeated this as kitchen warmed up during the morning. Then turned on oven and warmed up scale to a little over 80F.
Turned off oven let cool down.
Calibration factor @111g vs temperature recorded. Counts are 1 milligram each.
Zeroed for each reading.

Temp counts % error
65 -18 -0.016%
66 -14 -0.0126%
67 -10 -0.009%
68 -8 -0.0072%
69 -6 -0.0054%
70 -5 -0.0045%
71 -4 -0.0036%
72 -2 -0.0018%
73 0 0
Oven on
74 +2 +0.0018%
75 +4 +0.0036%
76 +6 +0.0054%
77 +9 +0.0081%
78 +14 +0.0126%
80 +20 +0.018%
oven off
82 +25 +0.0225%
85 +30 +0.027%
82 +22 +0.0189%
80 +17 +0.0153%
Still waiting for scale to cool off.
78 +14 +0.0126%
76 +7 +0.0063%
75 +5 +0.0045%
Taking forever to drop now.
75.4F


Finally made it, 73F

« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 03:02:59 PM by Rocketvapor »
Well I guess my new **** stirrin paddle don't work . I got a like . WTF 😈

Flo just received her EXPERT Mid range card from the NRA.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/famed-ex-uss-john-f-003916449.html

Dino412

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Re: Reloading Scales
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2022, 03:56:49 PM »
I have a small digital scale, probably cheaper than yours. I have never reloaded a cartridge,
 but I have the presses, dies, and components. I was surprised to find out how much the weight of
bullets from the same lot differs. I also started weighing my ammo and bunching them according to weight
to see if it would help at the range, and it made a difference.
When the SHTF you better already have it at hand, because it won't be on the shelves when you get to the Wal-Mart land.

ramblin84

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Re: Reloading Scales
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2022, 12:07:12 PM »
RV, I'll wait for your design of experiments to complete then just send me the correlation graphs.  I'm a visual guy, i.e. analog not digital when it comes to data.   :lol:

One note about you initial comments relative to charge accuracy and downrange performance.  Is it possible that humidity, temperature, etc. during reloading has more effect on ballistics than charge weight?
"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it."
George Orwell

Rocketvapor

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Re: Reloading Scales
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2022, 12:41:18 PM »
Temperature is somewhat easy to control when reloading.  Maybe not so much at the range.
Humidity not as easy and has a large effect on powder performance. 
Down here in the south powder has probably absorbed more moisture than when packaged.
How do reloaders that use VOLUME compensate for humidity?  :roll:
I don't reload in humid conditions and we don't have dry  :banghead:

When I reload it's usually 50 to 100 rounds (except pistol).  Powder for the day's reloading is dispensed and left to acclimate
Just don't reload or store powder or loaded (and unsealed) ammo in extreme conditions. 
The correct metric for water absorption is probably grains of water per pound of air.  Humidity at a fixed temperature also works. 

Most load development is based on "Sameness". 
Try for as much sameness as you can.  Collect velocity and group data from the same batch (or loaded under nearly the same conditions) you compete with.
For an F-Class outing, with a few sighters allowed for minor dope correction, sameness is critical. 

As I find time I'll do more on the scale reviews.  I'll focus on problems with digital scales.
What precision is needed, well that's up to the individual.

With so many reloading variables that can plague downrange performance, charge weight is just one minor detail. 
Range conditions, shooter consistency round to round and day to day, barrel performance, and wind being bigger problems, is there really a need to weigh charges? 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 03:10:11 PM by Rocketvapor »
Well I guess my new **** stirrin paddle don't work . I got a like . WTF 😈

Flo just received her EXPERT Mid range card from the NRA.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/famed-ex-uss-john-f-003916449.html