1954 Izzy

[harleyrider]

How can you tell if it's a refurb?

Hey TVF, in this case there are two details that definitively prove that this is a refurb:

The little <> symbol above the Izzy arsenal stamp on the receiver cover



and the xxxx-out stock with the new matching serial number stamped below.  Also note that this was formerly a stock from a Tula-arsenaled gun (star w/arrow stamp that is faintly visible after sanding/refinishing during re-arsenaling process).



There are other ways to tell if an SKS Russian rifle has been refurbished: black "BBQ" paint on the bolt carrier or other parts of the metalwork; scrubbed, strike-out, and/or electropenciled serial numbers on serialed metal parts; rear sight leaf that is not blued (in the white); and various other types of re-arsenal marks.

Below is an excellent discourse by member Logan7 about the various attributes of Russian SKS rifles in their various states of refurbishment.  A must read for anyone interested in these fine rifles.

HR

If you like reading, here's my synopsis on Russians for beginners:

           +++++++++

Question: “How much is my SKS worth?”

My understanding is that Russian SKS's generally fall into two separate pricing categories: shootables and collectibles and here's how I mark those distinctions -

The vast majority of Russian SKS’s for sale are refurbs - let's say 95%. And the fact is these value-priced milsurp rifles are actually in excellent mechanical shape (often better than the non-refurb ones) and for less money. They were built and used, then at some later point went back for a re-arsenalling process.

[This meant any combination of whatever was needed: new stocks (usually laminated, usually with a second cross bolt at the wrist); new black paint/enamel over the old blueing; new replacement barrels; possibly a replacement rear sight (in-the-white metal, not blued); new springs; perhaps a new magazine and floorplate; new gas tubes; pistons, bayonets; butt plates, etc.]

These "refurb" SKS's were professionally overhauled to like-new condition, and a refurbed Russian SKS rifle not only costs less than a collectible one outright but you won't be decreasing its value as much by shooting and enjoying them.

>Refurbs are very often listed for sale as ‘mint’ and ‘unfired’ and 'new' or ‘new-in-box’. Be careful to understand what that means. These are not in the same demand as collectible SKS’s and should not cost as much. I think an all-complete, excellent condition refurb should run about $325-$350 in the U.S. And those in excellent condition but with obvious lined-out old serial numbers, or mismatched serials, or missing some part such as bayonet or sling ...these can trade under $300 here.

Refurbs can be identified several ways:

1) They MAY have a special refurb mark on the receiver cover: either a square with a diagonal line through the middle [/]  or a diamond <> or a diamond with line <|>   or cross <+>  If any of these marks are present (check the right side of the stock for the square stamp, too) then it surely is a refurb Russian. But even if none of these marks is found it could still be a refurb!

I'd guess that about 1/2 of known refurbs I've seen actually have no 'refurb stamp'.

A first time buyer might be told that a Russian SKS for sale "is not a refurb because there is no refurb stamp" and believes it, despite other definite signs of refurb. And the seller may value it like an "as-issued" SKS ...but it isn't.

2) Refurb paint: another clue to refurbs is that all bolt carriers were finished in-the-white. So, if one has been painted over black then that rifle definitely went back to the factory no matter what the seller tells you. I think the same goes for bayonets - if painted blue or black then it's a replacement.

Aside from the obvious painted bolt carrier and blade bayonet, the presence of subtle shades of refurb paint can easily be overlooked: might cover a new barrel or an old gas tube, making one shinier than the other; or perhaps on a replacement magazine that looks just a tad darker than the rest of the rifle's metal; or on a worn down butt plate, making it look new, where no one thinks to look. There are several variations of refurb black paint -from matte to krinkle to shiny barbeque. It's an area that really deserves more study. Somewhere, someone knows which facilities used what paint in their re-arsenal process - but it's all obscure to us now.

3) Note that in addition to the stamped serial numbers, you will find on many parts of an as-issued original Russian several hand stenciled electro-pen serial numbers. These are not evidence of a refurb if you discover them on the gas tube, on the gas piston, on the underside of the rear sight, and on other components of the rifle where the metal is either too thin for the stamping machine, or is on a tight radius curve, or is a very small irregular part. However, hand stenciled numbers on the magazine bottom or the trigger guard where the serials are factory stamped does indicate a forced match replacement part, and therefore a refurb Russian SKS.

4) SKS stocks are virtually definitive regarding whether it's a refurb or a non-refurb, and really help to establish a rifle's fair price. This is a long topic:

Virtually all of the original production stocks were made of Russian ('Arctic') Birch hardwood with an orangey/reddish/brown shellac over a bold swirling wood pattern. And since most Russians are refurbs, the vast majority of these original stocks were lost - being replaced at some point with new hardwood stocks and in later years with the laminated ones.

[Note to collectors - a very few, very late Tula's were made with original production laminated stocks. These were introduced very late in 1955 or possibly '56, but there just aren't enough examples to draw firm generalities about them. Mostly, their laminated wood is covered with the factory red lacquer and the pattern is a real nice combination; all those I've seen have the tiny inspector's cartouches around the forward cross bolt; and these stocks often have just one row of stampings: the serial number.]

Anyway, an original hardwood stock in excellent condition, with all its original shellac and little inspection stamps are desirable for any collector. And they indicate a non-refurb rifle. I have not ever once seen a refurb Russian SKS -a known refurb- with its original stock still on it. My rule: If it wears an original production stock then the SKS has not been through refurb and may be a collectible one (subject to its overall condition, completeness, rarity of year, beauty...).

Now, here's how to identify that original stock:

Virtually all original production stocks (from both Tula and Izhevsk) have three rows of markings on the left side: the arsenal stamp, the year 'r', and the serial number (with both Cyrillic letters and Roman numerals). There will be no XXXX's over old serial numbers on an original, non-refurbished stock. And original hardwood stocks almost always have just one cross bolt, with lightly stamped inspector's cartouches around it. This design was later found to be weak, cracks formed behind the receiver at the wrist, and so the later-made laminated replacement stocks usually have two cross bolts.

If your Russian SKS stock is laminated then there's an overwhelming likelihood it's a replacement for an original hardwood stock. This is true even if its serial number matches the rifle's because most replacement stocks were stamped (or renumbered in the case of a reused stock) to match its rifle during the refurb process.

[*There is that very small chance that your laminated Russian stock is one of the rare late-production, original-issue ones from 1955/6, and of so it almost certainly sits on an as-issued, non-refurb Tula collectable.]

Both hardwood and laminated stocks were used for replacements during refurb (so you'll see laminated stocks on every year produced). Once-used hardwood stocks were reserialed and used to refurb, at first, later switching over to the new laminated stocks that were serialed to the new rifle. You can tell that some SKS's were refurbed twice since some of the hardwood (and a few laminated replacement) stocks have two rows of XXXXX's above a correct serial number.

Laminated stocks are a bit heavier, denser and sturdier and have two cross bolts. Also, laminated replacement stocks are generally lighter in color/finish [unless they are those rare late variants of the original production line]. As for value differences when purchasing a shooter-type SKS refurb... Well, folks don't seem to value one above the other; either a replacement hardwood stock with XXXX'd out numbers, or a replacement laminated stock - they all seem to sell at about the same price. 

Personally, I’d opt for laminated durability on a shooter SKS, certainly on a beater SKS, but some may prefer the more authentic early '50's look.

+++++++++

Now, after you know what category the Russian falls into, there's always bargaining:

I'd start deducting for the rifle’s use and overall condition, especially the stock. Deduct about $35 if it's missing the bayonet; say $10 for a missing cleaning rod; maybe $15 for a missing cleaning kit. You should add more for an original SKS sling - and if it is a year-dated sling with a hammer&sickle emblem, then much more; but I'd add nothing for an AK sling which are common on refurbs. Generally speaking aftermarket accoutrements like scope mount and plastic stock do not increase the value of a Russian SKS, and will subtract severely from the price of a collectible Russian - because it is no longer in "as-issued" guise.

Izhevsk-made SKS’s only came out in 1953 and 1954, and so are more scarce. No other difference. Collectors who want to fill out all production years will likely pay more for an Izhevsk. Their arsenal stamp on the receiver cover is an arrow in a triangle, in a circle. The Tula's are an arrow in a star. And if there is no arsenal stamp on top then it's a late 1955/6 Tula, and should instead have a rather small star on the left side of the receiver following the serial number.

By the way, if you see a serial number is on the right side of the receiver, that's an import company addition. It says: "Made in Russia, serial #CCCP12345" -or something. That's added after importation for marketing and I think detracts from a collector-grade example because it's 1) not original and 2) garish, but this does not lessen the price for a shooter/refurb SKS. The three other importer's marks are by NHM, KBI and CAI, and are all more discreet, in that order.

Let me say that whether you get a collectible or a shooter grade - these were all very well made semi-autos; the actions are quite rugged and in fact overbuilt for the 7.62x39 cartridge. This Stalin-approved design is still the parade rifle carried in Red Square today.

I'm going to insert here a caveat on the SKS design: two safety notes that may be unknown to new owners. 1] the safety lever when ON merely blocks the trigger from depressing. It does NOT block the sear from moving. Whenever you have a loaded SKS, even with the safety ON, a good jar or jolt or dropping the rifle can result in a discharge. 2] Russians made from late 1950 onward were the variant that omitted the firing pin spring, and it's free-floating. A free-floating pin will dent the primer each time it loads a round after firing. This is not a problem with milsurp Russian ammo because they have hard military style primers, but when using modern commercial ammo with soft primers there can be dangerous mishaps. There are many reports on this forum of slam fires and even full-auto discharges of all rounds in the magazine. If either of these issues concern you, please look into Murray's firing pin fix and Kivaari's sear/safety fix on the commercial pages of this forum.

In my own opinion, the Russian SKS's made at Tula and Izhevsk in the 1950's are more finely crafted and finished than those from other countries afterward. But because of the flood of inexpensive Chinese and Yugo models on the gun market the original Russians are still priced artificially low in order to be competitive, and are a solid shooting value. Enjoy them as fine historical trophies from the Cold War and, in certain condition, as worthy collectibles whose value keeps rising reliably.

++++++++

My own understanding of terms commonly used to sell Russian SKS's:

un-issued/non-issued : meaningless to me. I've never met an imported milsurp Russian SKS that was actually unissued.

as-issued : the collector's prize. A rifle virtually the way it came off the production line at Tula or Izhevsk. All the serials match. All the parts are original. No refurbishment marking. Complete and nothing missing. Excellent condition overall (with the typical exception of heavy wear and missing bluing on the buttplate alone). These usually show some gentle handling, with small and very light scratching. These do appear their age and have not been refurbished. [You know, it's only the refurbs that appear to be "like new".]

non-refurb : implies it is an as-issued Russian but really without the full commitment. Means there are no refurb marks, no obvious replacement parts, no refurb black paint, and the serials all match. But the rifle may not be complete. In fact, the previous owner might have turned a "non-refurb" into his bubba project using plastic high-cap magazines or drilling for a scope mount. So, while it might not have been sent in for refurb back in the U.S.S.R., who knows what you're holding with this vague description?

refurb/re-arsenalled : has been back to the factory or one of the SKS refurb facilities before import to the U.S. It might have a refurb stamp (or it might not), parts were replaced and therefore serials might not match, paint might have been applied to some metal, the stock is almost certainly a replacement. These are very easy to spot and differentiate from as-issued Russian SKS's.

all-original/all-matching : not the best way to describe a Russian SKS. I am dubious when I hear these terms because replacement laminated stocks on refurbs are often numbered to match the rifle, and this confuses amateur sellers and buyers who think it is an original laminated stock, seeing no XXXXX's. Ideally, these terms means there are no apparent replacement parts -which therefore implies a non-refurb. And it may even be in as-issued condition but don't hold your breath.

unfired/new-in-box : these are important terms usually referring to mint status on collectible firearms and are totally misapplied to imported milsurp weapons. Here, these terms indicate only that after importation (and packaging) the rifles have never been shot. These are terms often (mis)applied to non-collectible Russians. [A refurb actually does look brand spanking new out of the box because the refurb process brought the Russian SKS up to excellent mechanical condition and new appearance.] Reading "unfired" simply does not mean the one you buy hasn't already seen use, and abuse, and then been refurbished, exported, repackaged.

                                          -caveat emptor-

[martin08]

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

OK.  I did my best cheerleader impersonation.  But that Russian identification information by Logan is a large possible asset to this sub-forum.  MTCW.

[Russian Spetznaz]

The <> symbol is sometimes stamped on Russian SKS that were clearly never refurbished with stock that were never sanded have original varnish and bluing and all factory matching,its an inspection stamp not a refurbishment stamp.

[harleyrider]

The <> symbol is sometimes stamped on Russian SKS that were clearly never refurbished with stock that were never sanded have original varnish and bluing and all factory matching,its an inspection stamp not a refurbishment stamp.

Interesting.  Just to clarify, are you saying that the <> even on the receiver cover top is an inspector's stamp?  Maybe an inspector's stamp during refurbishment?

I ask because I have seen obviously refurbished rifles without any of what are typically thought of as refurb cartouches, but I've never seen one that had one of these marks that wasn't a refurbished rifle.

HR

[Woodbeef]

I've seen one all original stamped gun,and agree that it's an inspection stamp. But an inspection stamp applied at a refurbishment facility. Fragger has a theory about the all matching original with the stamp. The ones that needed no work were stamped so no time was wasted on them. They were put back into inventory after stamping. The thing though that kinda throws a wrench in the idea,is all the ones out there that were only given a stock swap. Why did they waste time doing this and not just automatically stamp them as done like the other ones were? One more Russian SKS mystery.

[Hillbilly61]

It could well be that only the stock needed replacing. The hardware itself was fine. One thing I've noticed about the Russian SKS, in particular, is the relative lack of soldier markings on the stock to be found. Stock artwork, ranging from simple notches to crests, etc is not uncommon on other C&R military rifles. I think stocks that had any artwork applied by a bored soldier or were just beat up were scrapped and that may have been the extent of the refurb.

[harleyrider]

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

S-T-I-C-K-Y !

OK.  I did my best cheerleader impersonation.  But that Russian identification information by Logan is a large possible asset to this sub-forum.  MTCW.

Ask and ye shall receive......behold, the new S-T-I-C-K-Y!

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=77478.0

Thanks Mods.   And thanks Logan7 for a great primer on Russian SKS's. 

HR

[Logan7]

I.. just can't believe ..I mean uhm, I want to thank the moderators.. I really never expected..

When I was little I dreamed that one day, you know.. thanks for the robe.. the bouquet.

[martin08]

Thanks mods.  I've referred many potential buyers with questions to this summary many times over the past two years.  It has always seemed to be helpful.

Now I can find it without a search!

And yeah, the dreams, the robe, the bouquet.....  don't get all sticky on them, Logan.  They'll never do that for you again.   

Congrats.  That is nice work.

[Jim88]

I unknowingly bought an UNISSUED 1954 IZZY in 1995 from a gun dealer for $105 at a gun show. It is not a refurb. It has the original red brown black arctic birch stock, finish, all matching serial numbers and was never in use. Bolt face immaculate and the chamber barrel etc.. No strike out's, or XX's. Everything the way it came from the arsenal. Thank God I never sold it. I also have a unissued Tula of the same year, and a 1955 Tula refurb with a black-blued bayonet (not paint) but truly black in color. It has a beautiful honey golden stock that shines like Tiger's Eys rock in the sun. Almost iridescent and 3D in depth. Unbelievable. I call her Goldilocks.

[Shoot the Refurbs]

Pics or it didn't happen

[Jim88]

I will try, but they are all in a protected location that needs time to get too. One day I will upload pics. I only fired the 1955 refurb at the range back then, the other two I just left alone for some reason. It was just luck. Because the refurb was my first SKS and then I bought the other two ('54 Izzy & Tula) because I like the first one so much. I never knew at the time how rare the Izzy was and somewhat rare the non refurb Tula would be. I did store them with a light coat of Ballistol on the metal and wood.