Exporting Bullpup stock to Canada---Legal?

[LKermit]

Howdy, folks!

As many of you are aware, I have been building and selling wooden bullpup stocks, literally to customers all over the forty-eight states of the U.S. 

What comes next is text from a conversation with a potential customer north of the U.S. border, pertaining to his ability to own one of my stocks.  (Italics are mine):

"Ok good news!  I just got off the phone with CBSA(Canada Boarder Services Agency) senior manager and she informed me that it is legal to import the stock in question because it is just an inert stock that is within legal parameters.  However the receiver is not legal to import.
 
I spoke with the BC Fire Arms Officer and she also informed me that the parts in question are legal to import. 
 
So we are a go on this end!   
 
I spoke directly to the manager because it expressly states in the CBSA that a bullpup stock is a prohibited item.  However CBSA informed me that if it only the stock and not the receiver and the stock keeps the firearm in legal parameters, it is not considered prohibited.   It must be indicated that this is a 'part' and that part is a stock only.   The trigger mechanism is also legal to import.
 
Now the question is, can you legally export a bullpup stock to Canada?" 

Does anyone here have experience shipping to Canada from the U.S., and if so, can you provide the little green guy with some insight/advice?  All I know so far is that shipping is expensive, but my buyer says that he is used to that!

KTF
 

[Greatguns]

IIRC I checked into this and shipped an SKS stock to Canada several years ago and that it was legal at that time. I recall it is okay on Canada's end as it falls into Category #4 of the restricted firearms parts list which means it is not restricted. The thing I don't know is if anything has changed since I shipped mine that would prohibit it on this end. LESchwartz might have better info for you as he tends top be the legal guru around here. Otherwise, have you checked the ATF website thoroughly?

[LKermit]

GG:

I took your advice and ended up phoning my local BATFE office, which referred me to the U.S. State Department, Directorate of Defense, Trade Control office.

Below is the entire e-mail response I received about exporting a gun stock to Canada (Italics are my own):

The exporter of a gun stock to Canada requires a license form DDTC, or the use of an appropriate license exemption. To obtain either the license or to use the exemption, one has to be registered with DDTC as an exporter of Defense Articles.  The annual fee for registrants is $2,250.00.
The alternative would be for the Canadian customer to order the stock from a registered dealer, who would then buy it from you for resale and export to the Canadian.  If the value of the sock is less than $500.00, the exporter could use the 123.17 (a) license exemption.   
Stephen M. Geis
DDTC Response Team
Contractor, XL
NOTE:  Information in this message generally discusses controls and information contained in the Arms Export Control Act and International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), both of which are authoritative on this matter.  The Response Team fields basic process and status questions, and assists exporters in identifying how to get answers to more complex questions handled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control's licensing and compliance offices.  The Response Team's services are not a substitute or replacement for the advisory opinion, general correspondence, and commodity jurisdiction processes delineated in the ITAR, which should be used to obtain authoritative guidance on export control issues, and do not in any way relieve exporters from their responsibilities to comply fully with the law and regulations.


Is anyone here a licensed exporter or know of one who might be willing to help a Maple Leaf out?

KTF

[Old Outlaw]

Your Canadian Customer would have to pay sooo very much for that import fee that it would make your head swim. This is why a wise Canadian does not try to do this type of transaction from the States unless it is a very large registered US Arms Exporter. And even then they have to pay the Canadian Importer for his time and troubles. Best not to risk trouble with the State Department.
FWIW

[LKermit]

Outlaw:

In speaking with HIS authorities, they are good to go as long as there is no receiver or other gun parts included.

It is our end that is the source of the huge fee ($2,250 just to REGISTER).

I certainly have NO plans to try to run something past our authorities.  I hear prison ain't all that comfy....:>(

KTF

[minister_of_sarcasm]

Hello LKermit,
Hope this helps you out a bit.  I found this out today while looking into something else.
This is from my post on:
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=122765.msg1450943#msg1450943

For our Canadian members I did a quick check with the Canadian Firearms Program regarding the modification of a SKS
The three modifications you CANNOT (I repeat cannot) do are:
1.   No barrel cuts below 18.5”
2.   No Bull Pup stocks as they are prohibited
3.   No hi capacity magazines
I did ask about the bayonet lug remove or addition of a different type.
In Canada they say they don’t care about that. 
As previously mentioned it’s always it’s best to confirm the legality where you are at before you do any modification.
Link to the Canadian Firearms Program
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/safe_sur/cont-eng.htm

If you want to confirm you can call the 1-800 number listed on the site and ask to speak with a technician regarding what is legal on firearms modification.

[Toad]

tag

[Doug_M]

I think the CBSA got things backwards.  In Canada bullpup rifles that are manufactured that way (i.e. IWI Tavor) where the stock and the receiver are one part are legal.  Bullpup stocks that are add-ons where if the stock were removed the rifle could technically be fired, are illegal.  Stupid law yes.  "Stupid" sums up most of our firearms laws.

This doc from CBSA explicitly declares them prohibited: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/pub/bsf5044-eng.pdf

[Old Outlaw]

You are correct. That specifically says bullpup stocks are Prohibited from Entering Canada.

[Beermaker]

I would call CBSA as even with a Bullpup stock, the rifle would have to be shorter than 26".

For Restricted firearms.
"firearms designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm
(26 inches) by folding, telescoping or other means;"

If the SKS in the stock is 26" or long it is still non-restricted, so the stock shortens the overall length but not such to change the catagory of the SKS when installed.  Bullpup stock is generalized in this case especially if they were thinking like a small sub machine gun or CQB weapon.  Heck the sks could be fired without a stock, it may be uncomfortable but it could be fired.  The bullpup stock would still add a few inches to the overall length.

Take measurements of the SKS in the stock and contact CBSA.

[LKermit]

Update:

The bullpup stock itself, so long as there are no receiver parts included, has, under the newest laws been ruled legal, assuming that the overall length is still within Canadian law limits.

The rub now is that an importer has been located which possesses the necessary import/export license, but wants to charge $200 to import the stock, plus $25 shipping, plus whatever import tax there will be on the Canadian side.  That is more than I charge for the stock itself............:>(

Thanks to all for your input up to this point.

KTF

[aogun]

I may be too late jumping in with suggestions, but ... Irunguns.ca are pretty reasonable fols to deal with. Have you canadian customer contact them to see if the can reduce the 200 charge, specially if he combines the purchase with another item (from their site).

On a related note, I am canadian and would be interested in your bullpup stock.

[LKermit]

aogun:

IRUNGUNS.ca is the same site we have been negotiating with.  Both of us received the identical e-mail:

"My friend currently we are only able to import our own parts and accessories as we have no way of inventorying 3rd party items.  As all of our exports are all submitted electronically it makes it very difficult to facilitate your request.  We would be required to do a separate export manually, that said the cost of the export license, import permit and brokerage is $200.00,  $25.00 to air ship the 1st item and 12.50 each item thereafter.  Once your items clear customs you will also be charged GST and shipping to your place of residence.   As you can see it’s really not cost effective but if you would like to move forward on this please let me know and we will get it done for you.  You may also find what you’re looking for at www.irunguns.com   and save the 200.00 charge.    If you need anything else please let me know…"
 
Best Regards,
 
Patrick Nuthall
pat@irunguns.ca
Phone: 780-449-7220
Fax: 780-640-0708
www.irunguns.ca
www.irunguns.com
 
If there was some way to get them to carry my stocks, then customers could avoid the $200 hand-importing fee which they attach to products other than their own.

KTF

[Beermaker]

Ship it USPS which goes Canada Post.
Item description: Wood sculpture and include a cord and lamp socket.

Alternately, maybe contact Cabelas and see if they want tocarry your stock in the US and Canada?

[aogun]

Could you post Alina to your web site of the picture of the stock. Would love to see it.