settle a bet

[panoz77]

From what I have read and have researched your buddy may be on to something if the bet includes only one bullet. There was an article by a trauma medic that revealed the effectiveness of ball ammunition in combat. He was saying that most of his patients came in with more than one gunshot wound (usually from ball ammo) and a good number of them survived, this included some headshots as well. His advice was to put as many rounds into them as possible, with the biggest gun possible to put them down for good. In a shtf situation you have no idea what the guy on the receiving end of your bullet will be on. He may have just done a massive speedball with his bandit buddies and thusly won't feel a thing. There is also the matter of adrenaline to consider, there have been numerous reports of people getting shot and not even noticing until much later that they had been hit.

Here's the link to that article for ya: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/daniel-zimmerman/medics-advice-shoot-heaviest-rifle-round-shoot-can-hit-shoot/

As for zombies AK I say .22 to the dome all the way 

That is a different theory.  But a .30 cal bullet is not going to make a perfect straw sized channel through and through even if it misses vital organs.

[skeptiksds]

Is the steel core more prone to tumble than other conventional ball ammunition?

[panoz77]

Is the steel core more prone to tumble than other conventional ball ammunition?

It doesn't need to tumble to massive tissue damage.  Bullets are generally very unpredictable when they hit anything.

[skeptiksds]

I would assume that even though it will do more tissue damage than a 5.56, any fun round will still just poke a hole in someone, though a .30 cal will put a bigger hole in someone. It would all depend on shot placement in the end. I don't argue that an x39 could put someone down quite effectively, but putting more rounds into your target will assure that your intended target doesn't continue the fight.

[panoz77]

I would assume that even though it will do more tissue damage than a 5.56, any fun round will still just poke a hole in someone, though a .30 cal will put a bigger hole in someone. It would all depend on shot placement in the end. I don't argue that an x39 could put someone down quite effectively, but putting more rounds into your target will assure that your intended target doesn't continue the fight.

Obviously the more holes the better.  But if you look at pretty much any combat footage, even if a soldier is shot in the leg, that generally takes him out of the fight (with rare exceptions).

Watch at 3:18 min into the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqMQf4QBl5w

[skeptiksds]

This is true, however the bet wasn't about soldiers in war. In a short situation there is a higher chance these people will be pumped full of some kind of substance (like Taliban fighters that a so high on heroin they can take multiple shots to the chest) these people also won't have access to medical care so the drive for survival May be higher, thusly continuing to fight. It would also depend on the person getting shot, how much experience they have on a battlefield, if they have been shot before, stuff like that. Imo one shot to the chest in a shtf situation won't necessarily take your enemy out of the fight unless you hit something vital like his heart or spinal column.

[panoz77]

Imo one shot to the chest in a shtf situation won't necessarily take your enemy out of the fight unless you hit something vital like his heart or spinal column.

Yeah, OK 

[skeptiksds]

Just sayin based on a lot of other factors such as drugs and survival instincts lol the more shots the better, I wouldn't trust just one round unless it was a .50 cal haha

[bobbers]

Just sayin based on a lot of other factors such as drugs and survival instincts lol the more shots the better, I wouldn't trust just one round unless it was a .50 cal haha

So, at root, your mind is made up and nothing anyone here says is going to change it, correct?  Because every time you get an answer, no matter the documentation that goes with it, the reply is a variation of "but what if???"

Which is fine, but I'm outta here; don't like to feed trolls in my free time.

[skeptiksds]

Not trying to be a troll here, if that's how it looks then cool. My mind isn't the only one that is made up and won't be changed though. I respect this board and enjoy everything about it, I enjoy being a member, however I would also like to have my opinion included without being considered a troll. I even asked if I was wrong and to be corrected. Yes, I have watched the videos of people taking bullets, I have read reports, looked at wound channels, and the lot. Sorry dudes, just don't bite my head off here. And sorry for jacking the thread.

[Onepoint]

Nothing is set in stone when it comes to wounds or shooting.  Its possible to shoot through and the target take minimal damage and trauma besides the obvious puncture.  I would not count on a 'big gun' to be simply more effective thiugh.  There is a lot that comes together to make a round lethal, and all of it has to do with disrupting the mechanical system of the target.  There is nothing magic about it how a bullet works.

 Take out the command center or take out the hydraulic pump, the fight is over, but making the hydraulic system leak until its drained, which takes longer, and the fight continues until the system can no longer function.  And there is shock trauma involved as well that can incapacitate as well besides that.  But there is no concrete answer to what is going to be deadly or not before you pull the trigger.

[MikeInTexas]

Nothing is set in stone when it comes to wounds or shooting.  Its possible to shoot through and the target take minimal damage and trauma besides the obvious puncture.  I would not count on a 'big gun' to be simply more effective thiugh.  There is a lot that comes together to make a round lethal, and all of it has to do with disrupting the mechanical system of the target.  There is nothing magic about it how a bullet works.

 Take out the command center or take out the hydraulic pump, the fight is over, but making the hydraulic system leak until its drained, which takes longer, and the fight continues until the system can no longer function.  And there is shock trauma involved as well that can incapacitate as well besides that.  But there is no concrete answer to what is going to be deadly or not before you pull the trigger.

Very well said!

[Carl in CT]

My buddy and I are at the range today shooting our sks's. The topic comes up about an Armageddon / shtf scenario. He goes on to say that he would not want an sks with steel core surplus ammo in a that scenario because if you shoot a guy in the chest ,its only going to put a 30 cal hole through him and even if you hit a lung, he is going to be shooting back at you for 10 minutes. I say he drops like a rock and is in no way, shape or form going to be able to shoot back at all. He might live for ten minutes but there is no return fire. What do you think?

So tell your buddy not to use steel core surplus ammo for his "shtf" ammo, just use it for plinking and practice. I believe one of the articles mentioned Yugo M67 as having significant yaw at around 3" of penetration. So buy M67 ammo or get some commercial jacketed soft points, whatever, problem solved.

[Chip Hazard]

I'd say it's possible the person 'might' be able to get off another shot, but as said earlier, they aren't going to be anywhere close to being accurate and it would probably be pure luck if they hit you.  Short of them being on drugs, I don't even think adrenaline is going to overcome a lung shot.

Another way to look at it is look at how many deer receive a fatal shot but they still manage to take off running, and sometimes for quite a distance before they finally drop over. 

So I would say it is possible they might get a shot or two tops because never is an absolute, but I really doubt they would get 10 shots off... let alone one or two accurate shots.

[Groovy Mike]

soft point = wider wound channel while steel core = deeper penetration. 

So would you prefer an 8 inch wound 3/4 of an inch wide or a 16 inch deep wound 1/3 inch wide.

Bottom line - if you hit vitals, the fight is over.  Period, end of story.
 
If you don't hit vitals, in a self defense situation, keep shooting.