settle a bet

[retcolusa]

Chip said, "Another way to look at it is look at how many deer receive a fatal shot but they still manage to take off running, and sometimes for quite a distance before they finally drop over.  "

Comparing humans and animals when shot is not scientific, but to make a point it is incredible what can happen.  I once shot a deer with a .243 WIN that was facing directly away from me, never would turn and give me a broadside or quartering shot.  The round entered just below the anal opening.  That deer ran almost 200 yards.  When I field dressed the deer the innards were basically like jello.  I could not identify several of the organs.  A friend just shot a deer with a "Quigley" Sharps repro, 500 grain .45-70 caliber.  The bullet broke one shoulder, took out the top of the heart, a piece of both lungs and left a 6" exit wound.  That deer ran over a 100 yards on three legs with the heart and lungs not functioning.  Terminal ballistics on animals is not an exact science.  Ranger can probably expand on humans.

[Groovy Mike]

How long did those dead deer running stay functional?  Less than 1 minute guaranteed.  Sure they can cover 100 yards in 5 seconds, but to say they stay functional for 10 minutes is just plain wrong.

[Chip Hazard]

... and for the record...

Yes I understand comparing animals and humans isn't exactly the same thing nor is it scientific.  What I was trying to get at is that a shot doesn't always kill immediately, and usually doesn't, but that also doesn't mean that whoever or whatever was shot will stay functional for long, there are a lot of variables.  I also said never is an absolute, which is why I wouldn't say a human could never get off a shot or two after being hit, rather it is unlikely they would be effective and I seriously doubt they would get off multiple shots let alone 1 or 2 good ones.  So if this was Myth Busters, they would tell the OP's buddy this one is busted.  If the scenario is either 'drop like a rock' or 'get off a couple shots that are probably all over the place', then it could be plausible. 

[retcolusa]

Just trying to make the point that things that are shot, animal or human, can do some amazing things.  After 24 years as a police officer my perspective and experience is a bit different, I suspect.  I have seen "shot people" do some amazing things.  It doesn't necessarily take a well aimed shot by a wounded person, just a lucky one will kill you just as dead.  And for the record, I was not criticizing you, Chip.  That dead deer running could and would run over you if it had the chance.  The whole point was that there is no way to accurately predict what will happen.  Ranger, jump in here with some of your experiences.

[Rocketvapor]

Ranger, jump in here with some of your experiences.

Col,
don't take this wrong but that just reminds me of the 'on sides kick'

[rich]

You guys wanna talk one shot stops?? 

If you're counting on making a stop with one shot from a reasonable firearm that you would use in this fictional situation you are making a mistake.

[Rocketvapor]

Where's that guy with the 500 yard 22LR kills ?

[PAX]

You mean the stuff in the movies isn't real.  PAX

[panoz77]

You guys wanna talk one shot stops?? 

If you're counting on making a stop with one shot from a reasonable firearm that you would use in this fictional situation you are making a mistake.

I think the premise was getting shot in the chest by 7.62x39 steel core and that it would just make a tiny hole and pass straight through and that the person hit would probably be shooting back for around 10 minutes.

My buddy and I are at the range today shooting our sks's. The topic comes up about an Armageddon / shtf scenario. He goes on to say that he would not want an sks with steel core surplus ammo in a that scenario because if you shoot a guy in the chest ,its only going to put a 30 cal hole through him and even if you hit a lung, he is going to be shooting back at you for 10 minutes. I say he drops like a rock and is in no way, shape or form going to be able to shoot back at all. He might live for ten minutes but there is no return fire. What do you think?

[Carl in CT]

Yup, the idea that a 7.62x39 steel core was not going to stop someone with one shot as well as other rounds like the 5.56 or the 5.49 was the original premise. I really don't think it would matter that much. If someone gets shot the bigger factors are going to be if they are jacked up on drugs and/or what kind of military/police training they have and if they have been shot before and have dealt with it before.

I can tell you this, if you poke a 30 cal. hole through my chest I highly doubt I'm going to be in much of a state to shoot back with anything more than a spray and pray for 30 seconds or so, if that. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe if it's my family that's at stake I might find enough adrenaline/will to pull myself together and fight on but if that's the case I don't know that it would matter what caliber you shot me with unless it's a 12 ga. that blows my chest wide open and knocks me back dead before I even hit the ground.

[retcolusa]

Ranger, jump in here with some of your experiences.

Col,
don't take this wrong but that just reminds me of the 'on sides kick'

RV, just trying to get some real world experiences in here vs hypotheticals and speculation.  There are just too many variables in the scenario to accurately predict a definitive result.  The two biggest are what did the bullet hit on the way thru the chest, and how much damage did it do to what it hit, followed closely by how much and what kind (arterial/venal) of bleeding and/or nerve damage.

[wolfgang2000]

My sig line should answer the question.

[ranger1968]

  I am coming to this thread a bit late;

 As to the matter originally posted, the friend who has the theory that the x39 will simply poke a hole and that the person shot will be fully functional in short order is completely wrong;

  He seems to be focusing on the size of the hole, completely ignoring the energy generate by the velocity; it;s as if he is picturing a spike which is shoved into and though the body at human speed- 80-90 feet per second- instead of a projectile of the same .30 diameter which is traveling at 2,400 feet per second, with the attendant energy involved.

  Any mid-thoratic cavity hit from pretty much any x39 is going to carry with it a tremendous amount of energy; a lot of that energy will be dispersed upon impact with the mostly water form that is the human body;

  Even if nothing vital is hit (which in a chest shot is unlikely, as there are a lot of things there to hit) , the energy transfer alone is going to cause a fair amount of damage, which may or may not be immediately incapacitating to the person shot; rest assured, they may stop right then, they may not; but they will be stopping soon.

  A word about the deer vs person comparison; it's not entirely invalid; upon the initial impact, the body release enormous amounts of adrenaline, which will cause pain to go unnoticed and which will allow a brief period of high energy activity; this may be somewhat bolstered by the presence of some type of drug, like khat, or ampetamines, or cocaine;  this is short lived, however,  and as the shock take over, function decreases. 

   A person, any person, who takes a .30 rifle shot to the chest, even if it's a clean through and through, is hurting, and they are going to be out pf action quickly; I have seen it on more than one occasion, in real life, in real time.

 

   

[retcolusa]

Thank you, Ranger for your insight.  What you are describing is a hydrostatic effect due to the fact that water (read that as blood) cannot be compressed.  It will therefore expand in all directions destroying or damaging tissue that it contacts.  This is why people who are shot while wearing a ballistic vest will still receive tissue damage from the impact of the projectile.

[Lostinspace]

Recently I went to youtube and googled 7.62x39 ballistics gel tests.  I was pretty shocked.  I know I watched over a dozen or so ballistics gel tests and pretty much all milsurp ammo acted the same.  Regardless of whether the ammo was fmj, hp or sp from wolf, herters, barnual etc it all acted like a fmj.  The HP ammo did not expand or fragment and the sp ammo did not expand either.  All of this tells me that milsurp type ammo for the sks will all perform pretty much like a FMJ.  I then went on to google Amax and Zmax .310 ballistics gel tests and saw a significant difference.  Those rounds do open up like a SP should and provided significant wound cavities.  Since I have quite a lot of x39 brass I am going to tinker with Zmax and other SP projectiles to find a round my rifles like and reload the heck out of that for SHTF. 

One thing I saw was that it wasn't unusual to get 20-30" of penetration from the milsurp x39.  You should be cautious about using it at close range because it will completely penetrate and hit whatever is behind the bad guy you just took out.