settle a bet

[wolfgang2000]

Folks lets get a little simplistic.  There have been 10's of millions people killed by the 7.62x39 round.  I'm not a 5.56 fan but I have to accept it has killed millions of people also.

I've hunted with the 7.62x39 using a variety of different ammo.  The 8M3 effect, Hornaday V-max and SST bullets.  All of these bullets put meat on the table if I did my part.

As a LEO in the 80's and 90's, I've seen many murders and photos of autopsy of people shot with the 7.62x39 round.  Most if not all were DRT.  I feel very confident using that round for SD and hunting.

One last point.  We all buy cheap Russian or eastern European ammo.   It's great blasting ammo.  But you can't expect ammo that cost 6 cents a round to compare to ammo that cost much more.  Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

[panoz77]

Folks lets get a little simplistic.  There have been 10's of millions people killed by the 7.62x39 round.  I'm not a 5.56 fan but I have to accept it has killed millions of people also.

I've hunted with the 7.62x39 using a variety of different ammo.  The 8M3 effect, Hornaday V-max and SST bullets.  All of these bullets put meat on the table if I did my part.

As a LEO in the 80's and 90's, I've seen many murders and photos of autopsy of people shot with the 7.62x39 round.  Most if not all were DRT.  I feel very confident using that round for SD and hunting.

One last point.  We all buy cheap Russian or eastern European ammo.   It's great blasting ammo.  But you can't expect ammo that cost 6 cents a round to compare to ammo that cost much more.  Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

You sure you are not still stuck in the 80's?  Because that was the last time x39 was 6 cents a round. 

[Gulo gulo]

Reference the Medal of Honor citation for on MSgt Roy Benavidez. Short version: helicopter crash in Vietnam, broken back, overrun by NVA, most likely armed with Chinese steel core, possibly armed with SKSs, shot 37 times, president personally draped a pretty blue ribbon around his still alive neck.

You need to hit the heart or CNS.

[BatBoy2 75]

Recently I went to youtube and googled 7.62x39 ballistics gel tests.  I was pretty shocked.  I know I watched over a dozen or so ballistics gel tests and pretty much all milsurp ammo acted the same.  Regardless of whether the ammo was fmj, hp or sp from wolf, herters, barnual etc it all acted like a fmj.  The HP ammo did not expand or fragment and the sp ammo did not expand either.  All of this tells me that milsurp type ammo for the sks will all perform pretty much like a FMJ.  I then went on to google Amax and Zmax .310 ballistics gel tests and saw a significant difference.  Those rounds do open up like a SP should and provided significant wound cavities.  Since I have quite a lot of x39 brass I am going to tinker with Zmax and other SP projectiles to find a round my rifles like and reload the heck out of that for SHTF. 

One thing I saw was that it wasn't unusual to get 20-30" of penetration from the milsurp x39.  You should be cautious about using it at close range because it will completely penetrate and hit whatever is behind the bad guy you just took out.

I can post at least 2-3 YouTube videos with the following 7.62 rounds that perform as designed; specifically Yugo M67, Golden Tiger and Silver Bear JSP rounds. Yugo M67 and Golden Tiger Yaw and tumble within 1-2 inches of penetration. Silver Bear opens up and fragments within one inch and leaves a particularly nasty wound channel. I love Hornady 7.62x39 SST rounds, but the price is just cost prohibitive. Plus, Silver Bear JSP perform almost as well as Hornady.

[Lostinspace]

I'm no expert but I really wouldn't want to be shot with anything.  A well placed shot from pretty much any gun is going to do the job.  I mean look at how many people have been killed with a .22LR.  That being said, I have looked at a lot of the videos on Youtube (I know that makes me an expert right?) and there is some pretty impressive damage from the x39 in ballistic gel tests.  The milsurp/wolf/herters etc doesn't seem to expand, not even the HP.  I would recommend that if you want expansion for SD then reload your own with soft point or the hornady amax/zmax if you can find the projectiles.  I personally like the x39 for SD within 200 yards and am very comfortable with it for that service.

[wolfgang2000]

I still have a couple tall 50 cans of ammo I bought in the 80's.  Including some Laupa that was cheaper than Russian when I bought it.

Some people just die hard, or it's just not their time.  I've been on many crime scenes and seen even more autopsies photos of people that were murdered by criminals using the 7.62x39 round. Anyone that doesn't think it's effective is fooling themselves. 


I know of a case where a MP shot a person trying to rob pay transport he was guarding.  The MP shot the thief 7 times with a 1911A1 45.  All were chest cavity hits at close to point blank range.  The thief ran 200 yards and passed out.  Last I heard he was still alive in prison.  Does that mean the 45 ACP is not an effective round?

Shot placement is paramount, still there are people that are alive today simply because it wasn't their time.

Pick the round you shoot the best pratice pratice and pratice.  My sig line tells it the best.

[Lmbass14]

Late to this party, and Carl beat me to the M67 ammo.  Yes, it's a FMJ, but it has exceptional yaw.  And if wolfgang can post some pics of the 8m3 exit wound, should be enlightening.  Why do you think they were made?  And why do you think they are in such high demand?  And yes I'm sitting on 2 cases of M67 and 1 case of 8m3. 

[wolfgang2000]

I'm afraid that I no longer have access to the autopsies photos.  Since they were Dept photos I doubt I could post them any way.  On the deer I shot with the 8m3 effect bullets, they didn't have a exit hole.  The fragmented bullet left a wound track that was basically jello with a small button of the base of the bullet in the far side just under the skin.

[Lostinspace]

Wofgang, what has been your experience with people shot by a shotgun, either buckshot, slugs or hunting loads?  Just wondering because we have a few hunting shotguns and a few boxes of buckshot for HD since we live in a subdivision.

[wolfgang2000]

Believe it or not  I've only seen a few shotgun shootings.  We had a officer shot with bird shot. he was hit in the left shoulder, (no vest) and was able to kill his attacker.  He worked to retirement.  I shot at a vehicle with 00 buck mag rounds and didn't even break the rear window.  It was a 76 camaro fastback.  Yes I know I hit it because there were holes in the louvers.  I did blow part of the rear spoiler off.  The car had many hits from 38spl rounds (not mine) but none made it to the passenger compartment.  The only round to enter into the passenger compartment was a 12 gage slug, (mine). 

I studied the crime seen report from the Miami FBI shootout.  At the end (IIRC it was Agent Moales) fired 4 12 gage 00 buck rounds into the windshield of the BG car.  He was less than 10 feet away, how ever he was at a angle.  Not one whole buck shot made it to the BG's.  All they got was lead and glass frag.

During the looting in New Orleans during Katerina the NOPD was ricocheting #6 off the concrete into the legs of the looters.  One looter ran at a officer and received a #6 in the throat at bad breath distance.  He was nearly decapitated.

PLEASE REMENBER THIS!!!!  Every human reacts differently to body trauma.  USUALLY a central nervous system hit is the only (mostly) sure one shot stop.  Why do I say mostly?  Because I know of cases there where people have been shot in the head and survived.  I know of one case where a male BG was shot in the head twice with a 357 mag and it didn't even crack his skull.   

There is no magic bullet, and some people just die hard.  Which is why I have the tag line that I do that follows each of my post.

[Sgt_Pork]

The 7.62x39 FMJ round has been the gold standard man-killer for eastern block armed military forces around the world for 70 years now, and it's still going strong.  There is a reason the AK47 and SKS are still found in every conflict zone on every battlefield around the world: the round these guns shoot gets the job done.

[Onepoint]

There is a reason the AK47 and SKS are still found in every conflict zone on every battlefield around the world: the round these guns shoot gets the job done.

Uh, that and ease of availability and cost. The soviets dumped them by the millions into the worlds  hot spots.  It was their trade currency for a lot of the post war.

[Sgt_Pork]

There is a reason the AK47 and SKS are still found in every conflict zone on every battlefield around the world: the round these guns shoot gets the job done.

Uh, that and ease of availability and cost. The soviets dumped them by the millions into the worlds  hot spots.  It was their trade currency for a lot of the post war.

All true.

[Groovy Mike]

Reference the Medal of Honor citation for on MSgt Roy Benavidez. Short version: helicopter crash in Vietnam, broken back, overrun by NVA, most likely armed with Chinese steel core, possibly armed with SKSs, shot 37 times, president personally draped a pretty blue ribbon around his still alive neck.

You need to hit the heart or CNS.

Sounds like some NVA picked up an AR15 from the crash site and dumped a 30 round mag into him starting at the feet for entertainment.

[Dragunov]

I think he is right in the sense that a steel core jacketed round  is going to punch a perfect 30 cal hole through the body (or will the bullet tumble?)Either way, I just cant see anyone being able to take a 30 cal hit in the chest  and be able to return fire. He is actually a brilliant guy , I just think he underestimates the power of a 30 cal round traveling at 2400 fps.

No. It will tumble on entry, at least the Komada FMJ ammo I use, will. I shoot hogs, and deer with my SKS. They do terrible damage. They tumble, and exit. They make a mess. I've seen pics of what a 124gr 7.62x39, AND a 55gr 5.56 round will do to a human body. It isn't pretty.