Author Topic: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)  (Read 5724 times)

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Fragger

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Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« on: September 22, 2015, 07:01:06 PM »
 :lol:
Nothing to do with Kool-Aid but got your attention.

Before I fix this in my little weld shop I'm trying to figure out what has gone south.
Really don't want to do the repair before I know the cause kind of thing.

Some facts first ...
1. Head spaced but MM trunion to bolt. (Bolt and carrier do match).
2. OOW receiver. In fact the ONLY receiver I've used in a build that I didn't fold from a flat.
3. Pistol build .... over gassed? It does chuck a steel case a bit farther then a standard rifle but I wouldn't call it excessive.
4. Yup ... it's cracked.
Thoughts appreciated.









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AKBLUE

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 07:45:03 PM »
OOW receivers of the older variety., like the flats are not heat treated.  They are soft and can warp rather readily.
However, having said that it is unusual for the type of deforming shown in your picture.
Over gassing could be the culprit.  How is the headspace?  Is the rear trunnion block getting battered by the carrier?

scarymike23

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 07:45:32 PM »
Bad heat treating, maybe something that slipped past QC? Mostly I'm just tagging to see what the actual smart AK people say ;)
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1mlt

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 03:32:57 AM »
I'm not a "smart AK person" by any stretch. In fact, I don't own any AKs. This is the one reason, right or wrong, why I won't put a piece of sheet metal under my face with 35,000psi exploding under my eyes. Does this happen often, likely not, but its my face, and I choose not to do it. Sorry if this sounds like a rant, it really isn't. I would also venture a educated guess it is a combination of heat treating (lack of) and over gassing. Just my HO though, based on years of shooting 'other' receivers. I would NOT repair that receiver. I would cut it up and start over. Again, just me !!!

Marcus
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AKBLUE

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 09:05:25 AM »
As noted the early OOW receivers are not fully heat treated except on the ejector rail and the FCG holes.

While a person can make a choice to not use a sheetmetal receivered AK pattern firearm.,  there are over 100 million of them in service and operating safely and efficiently as one of the most prolific firearms in history.
I suppose one could make the same analogy to an aluminum or polymer or other firearm characteristics used by the AR, Glock and several other firearms.  These seem to have a good safety record.

A one-off home build of unknown quality., displaying unknown assembly specs., is by no means a yardstick for judging a standardized firearm model properly assembled with quality materials & skills.

1mlt

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 10:28:15 AM »
As noted the early OOW receivers are not fully heat treated except on the ejector rail and the FCG holes.

While a person can make a choice to not use a sheetmetal receivered AK pattern firearm.,  there are over 100 million of them in service and operating safely and efficiently as one of the most prolific firearms in history.
I suppose one could make the same analogy to an aluminum or polymer or other firearm characteristics used by the AR, Glock and several other firearms.  These seem to have a good safety record.

A one-off home build of unknown quality., displaying unknown assembly specs., is by no means a yardstick for judging a standardized firearm model properly assembled with quality materials & skills.

AKB, not dissing the AK. Yes, a ton of them are out there and running for many years w/o issue. I was simply expressing my opinion. And no, I still would not attempt to 'fix' that one. The risk is too great for my blood. JMHO guys, for what its worth.

School me, how would one know that a receiver is one of the non-heat treated ones?

Marcus
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AKBLUE

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2015, 01:10:35 PM »
As noted the early OOW receivers are not fully heat treated except on the ejector rail and the FCG holes.

While a person can make a choice to not use a sheetmetal receivered AK pattern firearm.,  there are over 100 million of them in service and operating safely and efficiently as one of the most prolific firearms in history.
I suppose one could make the same analogy to an aluminum or polymer or other firearm characteristics used by the AR, Glock and several other firearms.  These seem to have a good safety record.

A one-off home build of unknown quality., displaying unknown assembly specs., is by no means a yardstick for judging a standardized firearm model properly assembled with quality materials & skills.

AKB, not dissing the AK. Yes, a ton of them are out there and running for many years w/o issue. I was simply expressing my opinion. And no, I still would not attempt to 'fix' that one. The risk is too great for my blood. JMHO guys, for what its worth.

School me, how would one know that a receiver is one of the non-heat treated ones?

Marcus

Without handling or working with it the example above would be one basic indication.  It would be uncommon to see a fully hardened receiver bow in that manner.  Of course not knowing all the build and set up of that irregular build is an unknown.  It has a cut down barrel, unknown barrel port size, screw build etc.
The example above shows pretty much bare white/silver metal where the paint has lifted which is somewhat an indication of a non heat treated metal surface.

On a non fully heat treated receiver that is in the bare or "white" one could readily see the rainbow/halo effect around the axis pin holes on the receiver where the spot heat treating was done.  Fully heat treaded receivers do not have this and are most often darkened as the salt bath and cooling process turns the metal from the untreated silver look to the grey/black finish.
If one were drilling or dimpling , or otherwise working with the untreated receiver it would be obvious in the softness and lack of hardness and spring like return to original shape when flexed.
Drilling a hardened receiver takes some reasonably shard and decent quality cutting tools.,drill bits etc.

Examples here>>

This is a non fully heat treated OOW receiver. You can see the axis pin hole spot treatment and the rest of the receiver as "in the white" silver color.


This is a Nodak Spud fully heat treated NDS3 receiver. The uniform post heat treatment condition in grey/black can be noted and the absence of the halo around the axis pin holes etc.


The type of sheet stock steel plays a [art as well. Though I'm no metallurgist the higher quality receiver manufacturers use the same basic types that heat treat properly etc.

The later production OOW receivers are fully heat treated. Older ones were also marked as ITM and only later as OOW. (Ohio Ordnance Works).
On an assembled firearm with a painted finish it could be hard to distinguish., though often the axis pin halo shows through a blued finish ., but not always on paint or park..

Fragger

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2015, 05:30:10 PM »
Well I checked my notes for this build.
I found mentioned that the initially port size was U/S and caused a failure to extract and feed reliably.
Although the size wasn't listed my notes they also included that I went up one size using my number drill index.

After reviewing the rest of the firearm as a whole I noticed that the retaining pin that holds the piston secure onto the carrier had worked loose. There were marks from contact made from it on the inside of the rear sight block. (Left Side)
When I would move the carrier assembly rearward to the location of the marks being made so that they would coincide with the retaining pin the damaged rail was directly in the middle of the short slot on the carrier that rides that rail. I don't think this is coincidental.

The 1" crack has been reshaped and welded as well as the the retaining pin for the piston repaired.
The carrier rides the rail nicely.
I have no problem testing this once back together or shooting many of the other stamped receiver firearms (non-AK) that I own. But thats not what this is really about.
The gas block ... I didn't bother to drift out the two pins to remove but is a possibility.

Indeed this is an early ITM MK 99 receiver.
I've read they were mostly made for OOW and the reason that I initially called it an OOW receiver.








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AKBLUE

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 10:06:18 PM »
ITM built the receiver for OOW. Later I believe OOW got their license to have their name on the receiver.
Like the Nodak Spud (NDS) receivers were originally marked DCI (DC Industries),
That is a non heat treated model. 
Appears you found the issue of the jamming piston.

Fragger

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Re: Not Safe to drink the Kool_Aid (with pics)
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2015, 01:30:37 PM »
I'm thinking the problem is solved too AKBLUE.
 It's back together and ready for a test run.
I did notice too that a grip plate looks like it will be added as well soon.
Guess with that soft receiver and the one handed hold used there is a lot of stress going on in the area of the grip nut.
Nothing so dramatic as the rail anyway but needs to be addressed.

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