Domestic spying poll

[engineer2001]

Your problem is that you trust the government, when they've proven themselves time and time again to be nothing but liars and cheats and tyrants.

I'd like to go on record as saying I love America and our government, despite the problems it may have.  I'll probably need government DoD clearance for a potential upcoming job, and I don't want to be put in the same bin with these "government-haters."  

I seriously think the President and our legislators were trying to protect us w/the Patriot Act, and the Pres. is really doing a decent job under hard times.  I even have a picture of George and Laura on the wall next to my phone in the kitchen.  I'd take it down if I thought he was a putz.



I don't fully trust anyone not in my circle of trust reserved for family at this point, but I like the Bush family and I love America.  If the PA is shown to be unconstitutional by the system we have in place, so be it.  If not, it must be fine (I hope).  That's why our forefathers set up this system in the first place - so we'd be safe from tyrants and injustices put upon us by the leaders.

[1952Sniper]

I have that same picture of them.  Friggin' Republican Party keeps sending me crap like that.  I won't say what I did with the picture.

If you think that criticizing the actions of the government and using strong language to defend our unique American system of protecting liberty makes me an "America hater", I feel sorry for you.

Which is the "America hater"?  The one who wants to preserve the ideals that the United States was created to embody?  Or the one who is actively destroying them?

[engineer2001]

I reread my post right before you posted and changed it to "gov't hater" since I realized what it sounded like.    I'm sure you love America almost as much as me, but you sure have it in for the gub-ment.

People like you (no offense intended by pigeon-holing you) keep the system on its toes.  That's great - we need you.

[VXbinaca]

Thob:

Read Unintended Consequences by John Ross.
Watch Waco: Rules of Engadement.
Then go see V for Vendetta.

You'll never be the same after watching all thoes.

[galahad]

I seriously think the President and our legislators were trying to protect us w/the Patriot Act, and the Pres. is really doing a decent job under hard times.

I have no doubt that the first part of your statement is true.  However misguided, GWB is "trying" to do the right thing.  His problem is that he's ignoring the Constitution while doing it and that's simply unacceptable to many Americans.

As for if he's doing a "decent job".  I think you're terribly mistaken.  A "decent job" would be one that adheres to the Constitution under which he was granted his power.  He has NOT done that, and neither have the legislators who voted for unconstitutional legislation.  A "decent job" would be one that included ENCOURAGING Americans to purchase and train in the use of firearms, one that created laws that FORBADE state governments from passing and enforcing unconstitutional firearms legislation, and one that promoted the thought that "licensing" Americans to carry firearms is nothing more nor less than an infringement on their 2nd Amendment rights.

OK, so maybe some of those things would be more than "decent", they might even be considered doing a "good" job.  

As for "hating government", that's an exercize in futility.  Yes, I admit that I do hate specific members of government, including Feinstein, Boxer, Schumer, and others, but hating "government" is a waste of a good emotion.

[Throb]

So we just ignore the fourth amendment?  What is unclear about  "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."???

Delayed notification search warrants are a long-existing, crime-fighting tool upheld by courts nationwide for decades in organized crime, drug cases and child pornography.

Does this bother you? I think its great.

Yea, sure, do the activity and then ask for permission.  Not only does it bother me but it's CLEARLY unconstitutional.  But the Patriot Act is FAR worse.  They don't have to get a warrant at all, they just put on the tap and listen to what you are saying and use it however they see fit.

The Supreme Court has held the Fourth Amendment does not require law enforcement to give immediate notice of the execution of a search warrant. The Supreme Court emphasized "that covert entries are constitutional in some circumstances, at least if they are made pursuant to a warrant." In fact, the Court stated that an argument to the contrary was "frivolous." Dalia v. U.S., 441 U.S. 238 (1979)

[1952Sniper]

I reread my post right before you posted and changed it to "gov't hater" since I realized what it sounded like.  

You still don't get it.  I don't "hate" government.  I just hate the way our government is run.  I hate what it is becoming.  But I don't hate government.  That doesn't mean I like it, either.  I recognize it as a necessary evil.  But it should damn sure be the slave of the people, not the master.  And that's what this debate is about.  Do you want to be a slave to government?  Or do you want government to be a slave to the people?  I can tell you which way the guys who created this government wanted it.

I'm sure you love America almost as much as me, but you sure have it in for the gub-ment.

You think I love America "almost as much" as you?  WTF does that even mean?  I absolutely love the principles behind what America was intended to be.  I love liberty.  More than you could possibly ever know.  But does that mean I "love America"?  Hell if I know.  When America stops standing for liberty, she's pretty hard to love.

[engineer2001]

WTF does that even mean?

Sorry, I was being a flame troll on that one.  Knew you would respond in that way.

When are you going to stop taking me seriously, anyway?  I like everyone on here, especially you.  You always help in an "official" serious thread, and you always go in guns blazing in a thread like this.   I'm sure you love America and the ideals it's founded upon and only merely dislike a few elected officials.  I am sure you, just like me, do not truly hate anyone and especially not the government.  I need to stop being such a troll.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand - is the government trying to take away our right to privacy by circumventing laws under the banner of protecting us?

It seems everyone but Throb thinks so, and I am undecided, as usual, until I see the facts in front of me.  The links being submitted in this thread are making me wonder if I should start writing a letter to my congressman... starting to be leaning the same way as everyone but Throb.

[mindcrash]

What's he say in V?  A government should be afraid of it's people, not the other way around.

[engineer2001]

What's he say in V?  A government should be afraid of it's people, not the other way around.

You mean V the old TV show (where Marc Singer fought aliens that looked like lizard people with fake skin faces and ate goldfish)?  Or "V for Vendetta"?  I have only seen the former, and it applies here as well - the lizard folks took over and Mr. Singer played the part of Luke v/s the Empire... they could do whatever and never be held accountable to the people.

[mindcrash]

What's he say in V?  A government should be afraid of it's people, not the other way around.

You mean V the old TV show (where Marc Singer fought aliens that looked like lizard people with fake skin faces and ate goldfish)?  Or "V for Vendetta"?  I have only seen the former, and it applies here as well - the lizard folks took over and Mr. Singer played the part of Luke v/s the Empire... they could do whatever and never be held accountable to the people.

I was talking V For Vendetta.  Not the alien show...but still, if the shoe fits...

[1952Sniper]

Anyway, back to the issue at hand - is the government trying to take away our right to privacy by circumventing laws under the banner of protecting us?

Yes, absolutely they are.  No matter what their excuses are, or how they try to justify it, the simple fact is that they are indeed stripping us of our privacy, and they know it.  That is not even up for debate.  It is a fact.  The real questions are: why are they doing it, are they being honest about it, what damage will it do to liberty, and should we allow it.

[Throb]

Ah, you're missing the point, Throb.  Engineer2001 has correctly shown how you could be the 'victim' of the very legislation you're touting.  You're basing your whole argument on the idea that the Patriot Act can only be used against "terrorists", when that has already been proven false.

Like I said, it WILL be used against us.

Your problem is that you trust the government, when they've proven themselves time and time again to be nothing but liars and cheats and tyrants.

Well the engineer certainly has put me in a tight spot. If I get busted for changing out parts on my gun so be it. The correlation between improving the usability of my rifle (like making a custom sling) and illegally importing firearms is cloudy, but I do see the point. If 922r helps the war on terror, great, but it doesnt, and I dont agree with it. The PA has proven to be effective, nobody sees that,  we are just worried that somebody wants to listen to our phone calls. If your not a US citizen, become one. If you are involved with international terrorism or undertaking clandestine intelligence activities, stop. If you are on the spankline, nobody cares.

After all the taps and interent activity logs are examined it will be concluded that I'm just an American who wants to provide protection for a devoted wife and 2 of the best kids in the world.  

I like my SKS and in its curret configuration is no more harmful than an AK-47, thats why I feel 922r is bogus, Even the ATF cant agree on it. If they are confused God help them.

Im not a domestic terrorist, and I'm certainly not a Gov. boot lick either.
I can handle the protection of my home, the cops would be my last resort, but when it comes to protecting the Nation, well I'm just one man.

When Im confronted with a complaint and the presenter provides no solution but just wants to whine it's a waste of time. But if real resolutions are offered we are one up on the problem. Until somebody has a better more effective means, its all we have and we have to have something, anything, to prevent another attack.

"Well we just got dirty-nuked, at least I was able to use 900-Monkey-Spank without anyone listening in, I'm going to Disneyland!"

 :P  :P

Las Vegas Review-Journal just presents two sides of a story. If the feds sought financial records of those suspected of  laundering money, they are well within the realm of duty. Your link is over two years old though.

Lets fast forward a bit:

Thousands of FBI wiretapped phone calls detail how two former Clark County commissioners accepted bribes, including oral sex, lap dances, cash and campaign contributions in return for favorable votes for strip club operator Michael Galardi.

The FBI is the bad guy? Not in this case.

[1952Sniper]

Las Vegas Review-Journal just presents two sides of a story. If the feds sought financial records of those suspected of laundering money, they are well within the realm of duty. Your link is over two years old though.

You didn't address the point!

You claimed that only non-citizens and terrorists needed to worry about the Patriot Act.  You claimed that it wouldn't be used against American citizens to deny us our Constitutional rights.  And you were dead wrong.  

So what if the link is two years old?  If anything, the problem has gotten worse.  The Feds are using this "terrorism" excuse to foment fear in the population so they can roll right over us and trample our rights.  That is the reality of the situation, my friend.  You can squeeze your eyes shut and put your fingers in your ears if you want, but it won't change reality.  Meanwhile, your support of unconstitutional measures is helping to destroy our republic.

I'd rather risk terror attacks on our nation than have it destroyed from within by those who were supposed to defend our liberty and our rights.  Terrorists can only kill people and destroy property.  Our politicians are destroying our way of life.

[KOOLmike]

No voting for me. I just want a simple "no" option.