Buying land, follow up

[1952Sniper]

moving to the country is not some fantacy land of humming birds and unicorns.

Well, to be fair, it can be at times.  Even despite having a lousy neighbor, I do spend quality time on my front porch watching the hummingbirds, deer, squirrels, rabbits, and all the other wildlife out at my house.  As well as my unicorns... er, I mean horses.  That is one of the payoffs of being in the country.  But it comes with a price.  And that is the price that most city slickers aren't willing to pay.  Inconvenience.  

City folks don't like to be inconvenienced.  They, as a group, tend to be very selfish in that regard.  If someone is doing something they don't like, even if it's perfectly legal, they will band together to stop it.  They'll pass a law or ordinance.  In the country, you pretty much have to put up with what others are doing as long as they're doing it legally.  The truly fortunate ones can buy enough land where they'll never have to worry about neighbors bothering them.  Maybe one day I'll be able to afford that much land.

I don't want people to get the idea that all country folks are rednecks who blast away at whatever they want, anytime they want.  By and large, country folks are courteous and friendly.   But they are fiercely independent-minded and don't appreciate people telling them what to do.

[engineer2001]

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but here's what I found online:

http://www.gunlaws.com/ShannonsLaw.htm

Enacted as SB 1307 in the year 2000, Shannon's law introduces a potpourri of new Arizona gun law and effects, by amending A.R.S. §13-3107, effective at noon, July 18, 2000.


Under Shannon's, the old strict-liability class 2 misdemeanor charge for firing a gun within city limits is eliminated.


Instead, firing a gun in or into a city or town, with criminal negligence, recklessness, knowledge or intent, is a class 1 misdemeanor or a class 6 felony, at the discretion of the prosecutor. Analysis of the complex bill text appears at the end of this update.


The exceptions from Shannon's include a firearm discharged:

- In justifiables;

- On a properly supervised range (as defined below);

- In hunting grounds;

- For controlling nuisance wildlife, with a permit;

- With a permit from the chief of police;

- By an animal control officer in the performance of official duties;

- Using blanks;

- More than one mile from an occupied structure;

- In self defense or defense of someone else against an animal attack, if a reasonable person would believe it's immediately needed for protection.


The new one-mile rule introduces a distance measurement into state gun law, on top of the existing 1/4-mile rule (which only applies to hunting) and the federal 1,000-foot rule (which applies to school zones, with exceptions).

Muscle appears to be in the right here, assuming he lives in a city or town within AZ.  It's great that you guys want to take up for the neighbor and his supposed "rights being violated" but he's breaking the new (as of 2000) law if he continues to fire near Muscle's house AND their houses are within city/town limits.  If he wants to keep shooting on his land, he has to move "further up in the hills to get away" than he already has.  Mars may work.  Or, just outside city/town limits.  If he's already outside city limits, the law above doesn't seem to apply.

[1952Sniper]

If he's already outside city limits

Isn't that what "in the country" means?

[engineer2001]

If he's already outside city limits

Isn't that what "in the country" means?

Not really.  My mom and dad live in the country (wooded and all), and they are within the city limits.

[galahad]

Not really.  My mom and dad live in the country (wooded and all), and they are within the city limits.

Then they live in the city.  It may be rural, but it's still city.

[engineer2001]

Not really.  My mom and dad live in the country (wooded and all), and they are within the city limits.

Then they live in the city.  It may be rural, but it's still city.

And everyone calls it "living in the country" because there are more cows than people.    I don't think "in the country" is technical enough to determine whether one is in city limits or not.

Man, did rbstern's thread get hijacked, or what?  

[1952Sniper]

If they're in the city limits, they're being dishonest by telling people they live "in the country".  They should say they live "on the outskirts" of the city.

[rbstern]

In my experience, most cities in rural settings have small footprints.  They rarely include somebody's substantial acreage.

I'm sure Muscle will be along any moment to clear up whether or not he's inside city limits.

[Foul]

moving to the country is not some fantacy land of humming birds and unicorns.

Well, to be fair, it can be at times.  

Tell me...
I'd pick a bad day living out in the boonies over Friday afternoon on I75/85 thru Downtown Atlanta any day.

[Muscle]

LMAO Ok i guess Im an asshole. My run in with a neighbor who was shooting illegally makes me a gun hater? Nope never. I would be the exact opposite.

13-3101. Definitions

5. "Occupied structure" means any building, object, vehicle, watercraft, aircraft or place with sides and a floor that is separately securable from any other structure attached to it, that is used for lodging, business, transportation, recreation or storage and in which one or more human beings either is or is likely to be present or so near as to be in equivalent danger at the time the discharge of a firearm occurs. Occupied structure includes any dwelling house, whether occupied, unoccupied or vacant.

13-3107. Unlawful discharge of firearms;
C. This section does not apply if the firearm is discharged:
8. More than one mile from any occupied structure as defined in section 13-3101.

If the law was 300 feet you can bet your ass I would be right there with the best of them shooting on my own "range"  I apologize to those here who feel I am trying to tell someone how to act or behave just because I built my home on property less than 1/4 mile away.

The fact is, in my area its not kosher and its illegal. I felt I did the right neighborly thing by allowing him to continue to sight in his guns there. If it makes you happier I live in the town of White Mountain Lakes. The parcels are 3 acres lots with some corner lots exceeding 4 acres. There is a home due west of me that is about 400 ft away. That homeowner who is a summer resident was at my place about a week after the "incident". This old guy is a hunting, gun toting arizona oakie, and he told me he was about to talk to the neighbor about his shooting as well.  Another home due north of  me about 400 feet as well but I have never seen these folks. There are many other homes scattered just like this throughout this area and most of these folks I have never spoken to, just wave as I drive by.

It bums me out that the brotherhood here has me pictured as a gun hating guy who moves in and starts regulating to my neighbors how things are going to be. For whats its worth Ive always lived out here just 3 miles closer to white mountain lake. Not a city boy by any means. But I feel I shouldnt have to explain myself any further. I will say again, my neighbor was unethical in shooting so close to us and was also illegal.  I have no ill will towards him and have bumped into him a few times at the store and we BS'd. T

etdbob, I merely stated that if I wanted to be able to shoot out here. I would go talk with the neighbors first before I started blazing. My neighbor knew I built next to him, I think he should have come over to introduce himself and show me what was up first. I am not afraid of guns, freedom, am not sick in the head, never lived in the city, dont have drive slow signs, have a few junk cars in my yard.  etdbob, you sound like a wierdo    and You can kiss my ass!  :D

[galahad]

Muscle appears to be in the right here, assuming he lives in a city or town within AZ.

I don't think so.  You have to read it like a lawyer.  Note specifically the bold type:

Instead, firing a gun in or into a city or town, with criminal negligence, recklessness, knowledge or intent, is a class 1 misdemeanor or a class 6 felony, at the discretion of the prosecutor.

If the law had been intended to criminalize ANY discharge of a firearm inside a city excluding only the specific exclusions listed it would have read,

Instead, firing a gun in or into a city or town is a class 1 misdemeanor or a class 6 felony, at the discretion of the prosecutor.

The neighbor has set up a shooting range and unless someone can show "criminal negligence" it doesn't appear to me that he is breaking the law.  This jibes with the section that I found that said that the shooter must be 1/4 mile away from the nearest building.  

The point is, Muscle, that you ASKED for opinions whether or not you did wrong.  I think you did wrong.   You were not damaged in any way, except as you said by the noice, and the noise is less than the normal street noise, horns and sirens,  in a city.  The legal issues are more than anyone here can answer for sure, but the "neighborly" issues are a matter of each persons opinion.

[engineer2001]

If they're in the city limits, they're being dishonest by telling people they live "in the country".  They should say they live "on the outskirts" of the city.

You're being dishonest to yourself if you think "in the country" has a strict definition.    It generally means anywhere that isn't urban or suburban.  About all of north Georgia is "in the country" to almost everyone who lives here.  Except for if you live downtown in a city.  Even there, it's not really "urban" by Atlanta standards.    Blink while driving down main street, and you miss the whole city.  

Smalltown, GA
Population 1000
Saaaalute!

[josh]

I have a neighbor who lives approx 1/4 mile or a little less away. Wife and I built our house on 3 acres and moved in two summers ago. First time we heard him shooting it sounded like a friggin war. He had the whole family out there.

I was pissed that someone would shoot like that without at least coming over to introduce himself and show me his range.  I went over there(pissed) and he showed me his backstop which abuts the forest. He also invited me to come over anytime and shoot my guns there. I was still pissed and told him that I was concerned that someone may make a mistake and send a round or two downrange in the opposite direction. As my house is up on a small hill, it was easy to hit.

He basically told me they have been shooting there for the past 10 years and were not going to stop. He insured me that he would be on the range whenever someone was using it. This pissed me off more.  

I told him that it was illegal to shoot his guns within 1 mile of occupied structure in AZ and that I wasnt going to sit on my back porch and listen to WW3.  (sorry I built my house within a 1/4 mile from you bub, but you cant go on shooting like this now) Being that Im a nice guy I told him I would compromise if he were to use his range for sighting in rather that a family shooting party. He accepted. Now once or twice a month I may hear 10-20 shots from there. I believe if he wants to take the family out to burn up some rounds he can load them up and go to the cinder pit like everyone else.

Was I wrong? I mean the guys had 5 other family members out there including his kids. Im not against gun ownership and use by any means but c'mon! I found it very rude and unethical to be out there like that. It makes the wife a little more nervous than me.

I think if you are going to want to shoot near people where they live, you should talk to them first. Invite them over for a beer and show them what you want to do.

I dont know if it is a right or wrong thing. You are entitled to your opinion.
  But if i were your neighbor I would have invited you to go fist yourself!

 My one neighbor was crying about me waking them up on a saturday morning by shooting. It was 10 am.  I laughed and said "you should have come over since you sure werent going to sleep through my shooting."
 They have kids though so i dont shoot before 9am in case the kids are sleeping in.

I especially dont care what some stupid law says. I have been known on more than one occasion to shoot from the house and routinely rest across the roof of the car.

Guess we just have different ideas.

[galahad]

OK, so let's define it.  To me being "in the country" means no restrictive city ordinances, it means that people are accountable to their neighbors, not to the city council.  It means lower taxes, septic tanks, and water wells, often pumped by a windmill.  Propane tanks.  No city services.  Electricity if you're lucky, a generator if you're even luckier.  Dirt roads that you pay to dump gravel on every few years, sharing the tab with your neighbors.  It means "going to town" once a week for groceries, with a local "general store" if it's a "populated" area.  

It does not mean living among the "horsey set" like we have all along the SF Peninsula in little towns with names like Woodside, Portola Valley, and Los Altos Hills.  Yes, there are trees, horses, a few cows, and lots of Jaguars and Mercedes Benz cars.  Ask them and they will tell you that they live "in the country".   No sidewalks does not mean "in the country".  

That's my definition, what's yours?

[Slayer Returns]

My definition of the Country is wide open spaces, the woods, fields, many miles from any City or Town, and multiple Acres between homes, often 10 acres or more. The place where we are going to move, to have a home or even Trailer built you must have a MINIMUM of 5 acres. This will keep it from getting too crowded, and that's the law too.