Author Topic: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?  (Read 13819 times)

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Willshire

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7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« on: January 15, 2007, 11:27:36 PM »
I don't have a handgun at all for the moment, and I am really interested in getting one. I've an interest in the 7.62x25 and the .45. The tokarev seems like a good mix between regular and magnum loads, while being a semi-auto pistol. The .45 has saved my uncle's life a good number of times while he's been a LEO, which is why I have a good respect for the two bullets.

I'd like to know how the 7.62x25 compares to the .45. I'm probably getting a 1911 for the .45 or a CZ-52 for the 7.62x25. Which one is more reliable, accurate, etc. And which one (if at all) is best for concealed carry, I'm not familiar with concealed carry so I don't know what size of frame I should be looking for.

Remington 7400

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2007, 11:41:20 PM »
I'd go with the .45, better knock down, cheaper ammo, and a guaranteed ammo avaliability, no one in the US manufactures the 7.62 Tok, a ammo import ban could spell doom for the 7.62.

Personally if I wanted a bottle neck high velocity pistol round I would look into the .357 Sig.

czgunner

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2007, 01:29:36 AM »
There is no such thing as knock down power.
I think that the .45 is more common, but the 7.62 is cheaper if you shop around.

Abyr

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2007, 06:54:06 AM »
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgunlist.aspx?cart=Ny42MngyNSBUb2thcmV2
Winchester sells the stuff.
...and a guaranteed ammo avaliability, no one in the US manufactures the 7.62 Tok, a ammo import ban could spell doom for the 7.62.

Daekar

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2007, 08:15:39 AM »
Really, the only popular option that I'm aware of in 7.62x25 is the CZ-52.  There are other guns out there (actually there's a Commie ripoff of either a Hi-power or a 1911, I can't remember which, that takes that caliber) but they're not common.  I liked my CZ-52 very much, but the one I got wasn't reliable (slide-hold-open failures and jamming linked to a perpetually loose slide-hold-open lever), so I wouldn't have used it for carry.  I don't know if that's the exception rather than the rule, though - perhaps a few of the board members will chime in.  The CZ is very powerful (more muzzle energy than the .45) and kicks quite a bit more.  It also comes with some possible over-penetration issues (bad unless you're shooting somebody with body-armor, in which case they're screwed).  My 0.02 is that for CCW you want a compact .45 or .40s&w.  FWIW, the CZ could be very accurate with the right ammo - I was making 20oz. coke bottles jump on every shot inside 25 yards when I practiced with it.  The sights leave something to be desired though - they really need little dots on them.  It's a lot easier to be accurate with my brother's XD in .45 because of that - plus the trigger is better, and it doesn't kick as much. 

HOWEVER - the XD cost around 500.00 and the CZ-52 cost 149.95 - not exactly comparable price range.  But almost any pistol (with the right ammo and practice) is better than no pistol.  If you're strapped for cash, get the CZ-52 and make SURE you get HP for carrying (lots of good FMJ around for practice right now), because you can get the gun and LOTS of ammo for the price of the XD/GLOCK/etc. 

If you can take the pain of forking out some extra cash, my personal recommendation is that you might be better off  buying something in one of the 3 "standard" calibers - 9mm, 40S&W, or 45ACP.  As for which of those is better, that's a whole other can of worms.  IMHO, the reason the 9mm rates so poorly with the military is that they're being forced to use FMJ bullets.  As long as you're using decent HP or JHP or any number of other defensive loads, any of the three should be fine.  I'll admit that looking down the barrel and noticing that it's 0.45" wide instead 0.354" wide (9mm) would be intimidating.  Personally, my GLOCK will be in 40S&W - I like the "middle way." :)

PS - all that is if you want a pistol - if you want a revolver, my pick is a hammerless in stainless steel with a 2.0"-3.0" barrel in .357Mag. Another 0.02
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sksmedic

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2007, 09:30:17 AM »
Can you explain, "no such thing as knockdown power" 
I believe that the 45 acp is a great man stopper. Far superior to a 9mm and i am quite sure it it superior to the 7.62x25 tok. I am a paramedic and have seen and treated many gunshot wounds. In most cases I saw people that were shot twice as many times with 9mm and still talking vs the dead guy shot with the 45. Don't get me wrong, shot placement is very important. But it has just been my experience that the 45 stops them more often than a 9mm. If cash is an issue, you might want to consider a Rock Island 1911. They run anywhere from $329-$379. 
People may argue that the increased velocity of a smaller round is better than a larger diameter bullet. That is true in high velocity applications, however the majority of handguns are not "high velocity" They are medium velocity. Damage caused by temporary cavitation is not a factor in most handgun ammunition. Permanent damage from temproary cavitation comes from bullets with a velocity of 1500 fps. or greater.

God made paramedics so firemen could have heros too..

bch7773

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2007, 11:28:59 AM »
i think .45 acp is overrated, but for a CCW application, its better than the 7.62x25.  I have a cz52 and love it, but its not the best for CCW.  Its fairly large, heavy, and fires an overpenatrating bullet.

I'd look at a semi-compact or compact .45, .40, 9mm etc.
guns be funs

docbuckhead

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2007, 11:43:35 AM »
There is no such thing as knock down power.
I think that the .45 is more common, but the 7.62 is cheaper if you shop around.


+1

All guns (calibers) can kill.

The "deadliest" caliber, in handguns, is the 22lr.

More people have died from this caliber, nationwide, in the last 100 years, than any other fired from a handgun.

But dead is not "knocked down", as in, ""I shot him once, and he fell like a puppet whose strings had been cut.

That can happen, if you severe the spine, with any caliber.

But no handgun round, that is available in a carry gun, is powerful enuff to "knock someone down".

All due respect to sksmedic, but simply viewing the aftermath of a shooting does not tell the whole story of what occurred.

I too have been on site of a few shootings, as well as read the after shooting reports and debriefs, and attended autopsies.

I've even been present at several shootings, while the bullets were still flying.

Saw a person hit with a 12 gauge slug, who remained standing and combative for at least 20 seconds.

If a 12 gauge slug, at 438 grains and 1600 fps, with a caliber of .69,  can't be relied upon to immediately terminate an attack, by "knocking down" the aggressor, then a 45ACP, with 185 grains, at 1200 fps, and a caliber of .45 certainly can't.

(45ACP Ball ammo is superior to 9mm Ball ammo in it's ability to end a fight)


The Tokarev round (7.62x25mm) has slightly less ME than common 9mm (non plus P) rounds, and unless dangerously overloaded, is not comparable to 9mm+P.

9mm+p, with modern JHP ammo, is as good a SD round as any 45ACP, 357, Sig or Mag, 45ACP, 40S&W, or any other such caliber, all recording 90% or better on what is sometimes called "one shot stops", which is defined as ....one round, placed into a vital upper torso area, with a result that the aggressor becomes non-combative within 10-15 seconds.

Which is, or should be, meaningless to a person defending themselves, as you should fire for effect until the threat is gone.

10 seconds is a LONG time for a person to be able to shoot at you.

To most experienced persons, this means at least two, and likely three shots.(and sometimes, more)

At that point, with any of the better calibers mentioned, you should have negated the threat, if you placed your shots well.

If you missed, or did not stike vital CNS or CP systems, you might yet be there a while.


I'd stick with something shooting the 45ACP, between the two guns, for energy and logistics purposes.

The 1911 format is fine, but there are more modern,and equally as good, options in handguns.

 8)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 11:58:25 AM by docbuckhead »

czgunner

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2007, 12:31:58 PM »
Just thought I would share this here.

Like was mentioned above. The bigger bullet is better when firing FMJ...probably. Placement is absolute key.
I spent a year in Iraq, and people die when they "shouldn't" and live when they "shouldn't". Human anatomy is amazing, and very unique case to case.
ALWAYS carry good factory loaded SD ammo. Speer gold dot, Cor-Bon, TAP comes to mind.
Again practice so placement becomes perfect!!!

Frisco Pete

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2007, 04:40:43 PM »
The 7.62x25 round is so limited in gun choice and ammo choice it isn't a good choice for CC.  Surplus pistol price makes them (CZ52) a fun and attractive 2nd pistol for just shooting pleasure.   
With the 9mm/.40 frame size you can get some nice little pistols that conceal well but have decent capacity and power.
The .40 S&W has most of the 9mm's capacity with most of the .45's power.  It fits the bill of what the FBI considered the ultimate carry pistol round and was engineered with that in mind.
The classic .45 ACP has a larger frame size and less capacity, but there are some reasonably small pistols in it.
Law Enforcement overwhelming chooses the rather new .40 with "Wonder-Nines" fading out in that role.
The .45 has a long history as a superior man-stopper.
Use good hollow points whatever caliber you choose.
After all is said and done, I generally prefer my self-defense caliber to start with a "4".
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Willshire

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2007, 05:07:11 PM »
Thanks guys for your comments, I didn't mean for this to turn into the new 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45. I guess I will stick with the .45 for my all around pistol. I'm more familiar with using them and have had a better experience with them and the round has more sentiment to me, nothing out of performance of the bullet (I actually view them on a equal level if that's hard enough to believe). However, is the 1911 frame too big for concealed carry, or should I be looking for smaller frames?

karlsgunbunker

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2007, 07:00:16 PM »
I own a CZ-52 and Tokarev in 7.62x25.
I also own a Ballister molina, 1911, and 2 revolvers in .45acp.

Both the Tokarev (7.62x25) and .45 acp are good rounds.
.45 acp with HP will deliver more energy to the target (knock down). The tokarev with FMJ will tend to over penetrate.

There is HP ammo available in 7.62x25 (makarov.com) but I haven't seen any data on it's effectiveness.

I would not want to get shot with either one, both are very capable of killing.

I enjoy shooting all of the above handguns and would recomend any of them for range use.
For self defense the CZ-52 has issues.
The Tokarev in 7.62x25 would be fine with HP ammo.
The 1911 style in .45 acp is always a good choice.
Revolvers in .45 acp are also excellent.

Cost:
CZ-52 - $129-$149
Tokarev - $229 at SOG  - $400+ online
Rock Island 1911 - $299 at SOG
Taurus 455 Tracker SS .45acp - $299 CDNN

Carry what you are comfortable with!
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Frisco Pete

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2007, 07:14:38 PM »
Quote
I will stick with the .45 for my all around pistol. I'm more familiar with using them and have had a better experience with them
  A wise choice, when considering CC or self-defense.  I would go either with the so-called "Commander" length 4" barrel and full length grip (e.g. SA Compact, Kimber Pro-Carry, SA XD45 Compact) or 3.5" with shorter grip (e.g. SA Ultra Compact, Glock 36)  The 4" is a good compromise between general shooting use and carry, while the 3.5 is really slanted to hard-core concealed carry.  Note some of the above are not 1911s, but Glock or Glock style striker-fired pistols that have a single weight trigger pull similar to the 1911 (unlike conventional DA/SA).
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docbuckhead

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2007, 08:16:14 PM »
Quote
I will stick with the .45 for my all around pistol. I'm more familiar with using them and have had a better experience with them
  A wise choice, when considering CC or self-defense.  I would go either with the so-called "Commander" length 4" barrel and full length grip (e.g. SA Compact, Kimber Pro-Carry, SA XD45 Compact) or 3.5" with shorter grip (e.g. SA Ultra Compact, Glock 36)  The 4" is a good compromise between general shooting use and carry, while the 3.5 is really slanted to hard-core concealed carry.  Note some of the above are not 1911s, but Glock or Glock style striker-fired pistols that have a single weight trigger pull similar to the 1911 (unlike conventional DA/SA).

One other, that is new to the market in 45ACP, but in a proven design, is the Kahr 45ACP.

http://www.kahr.com/front.html

Very thin and light, due to single stack configuration, witha polymer frame.

.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 08:18:42 PM by docbuckhead »

Morg308

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Re: 7.62x25 Tokarev or .45 ACP?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2007, 08:25:59 PM »
The .45 has a well deserved reputation for stopping people, and right now. I talked to one WWII vet who carried a Thompson, and he said one round would take a man's arm right off. This is a guy who fought in the bulge, was in the 551st pathfinders, and they suffered 98% casualities in that battle. I tend to believe the guy. I've heard a number of stories from many different sources, and have no doubt that it does the job. Col. Cooper would definitely agree with the .45 as a choice. The 9mm OTOH, has the opposite rep. Pie charts aside, I've owned both, and they both have advantages. The .40 is a good choice, and I like the .357 125 JHP, agian, a well-known manstopper. The x25 Tok round could actually be an advantage in FMJ against a carload of felons. I have no doubt it would pass through the car,into the felons, and probably stop there. I need to buy some watermelons and do a junk car test!