The 10mm Debate (split from CCW)

[prodgi]

I say the FBI spent a ton of our money researching what rounds are acceptable, it's kinda hard for me at least to argue with those findings. Unless I've missed something the results from any .380 round out there today you can get some expansion or penetration. In the .380 you cannot get both.
It seems that a growing number of folks out there are carring FMJ's in their .380's for that very reason. A bullet that penetrates but don't expand can be more devastating than a expanded round that carries little penetration. A cop friend of mine has told me from what he has seen that most shots on an armed attacker will first hit or go through their arms first, since their arms are up in an offensive position. That fact alone tells me I'd chose penetration over expansion if I had to. Of course over penetration is a real concern, but you have to know what's around before you fire that shot. No shot is still a no shot even if it means you not defending yourself, you will be responsible for every shot fired. After all there is not guarantee's that the fancy hollow point we all love will open up and not over penetrate anyway.
Penetration is a must, expansion if you can get it should be thought of as an extra bonus. 

[galahad]

I say the FBI spent a ton of our money researching what rounds are acceptable, it's kinda hard for me at least to argue with those findings. Unless I've missed something the results from any .380 round out there today you can get some expansion or penetration. In the .380 you cannot get both.

OK, but as far as the FBI is concerned the 10mm is the cats meow and neither the .45ACP nor the 9mm is as good.  I don't see much of anybody around here (except me) moving to the 10mm.  I grant you that the .380 is well below those rounds but as has been said over and over, getting shot with one isn't going to be pleasant and might well be fatal.

[Frisco Pete]

The FBI findings from 1989 were the first really scientific analysis of bullet performance and have set the standard ever since.  But they really have to be taken in context.  Because of this testing, the newer bullets in every caliber tested (and ones that weren't) have been greatly improved in the two decades since.  Therefore the results aren't necessarily "gospel" today but are illustrative still.

However they felt that the performance of the 10mm ever-so-slightly edged that of the .45 ACP and easily beat the 9mm.  According to one source: "Averaging the volumetric results over all eight test events, the 10mm and .45 displaced similar volumes of tissue within the desirable penetration range of 18"-4.11 and 4.22 cubic inches respectively-well beyond that displaced by the 9mm and .38-which respectively measured 2.82 and 2.16 cubic inches.

As an additional consideration, the 10mm was by far the most accurate round tested, consistently providing one hole 10-shot groups at 25 yards of less than an inch (0.77" average) with both handloaded and factory ammunition built to FBI specifications. By contrast, the 9mm averaged 2.3" and the .45 averaged 2"."  

The FBI also wanted to go with a high-capacity semiauto pistol that would fit the majority of it's agent's hands and here the bigger .45 failed to make the cut, as there were no hi-cap .45 Autos at the time.  10mm wasn't much better either.  Both of these rounds suffer in length as well as diameter as far as making a gun smaller.  But in using the data they collected they realized that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps).

S&W, in cooperation with the FBI and Winchester realized that the long case of the 10mm wasn't needed to achieve the FBI Protocol "ideal" in performance.  So with a shortened case, but used the same .400"/10mm bore, designing it to fit into smaller, but high-cap 9mm-size autopistol frame.  Thus the .40 S&W was born.  The very first round designed specifically around a hollow-point bullet and the first designed around very valid and current scientific testing.  The fact that is resides in 70% or more of the holsters of LE in the country and complaints about it's performance are minimal, it certainly can be considered a success by any standards.

Therefore we learn that that is the actual reason the 10mm is not really "the cats meow" when it comes to an ideal autopistol round for LE.  In fact, it had a very short life with the FBI as a issue caliber, but the spirit of the 10mm lives on in the .40 S&W.  In fact the 10mm has only hung on as a sporting and hunting round.  This is not to say that the 10mm is anything but terrific as a defensive round - even in the hard-to-find nowadays full-power loads if you are willing to deal with the somewhat greater recoil.  

So according the final report card, the .40 S&W is the ideal compromise - beating it's parent round with less recoil, a package that fits in smaller 9mm frames, and stopping performance equal to what the FBI found was enough or ideal in the 10mm.  So "shorty-forty" ended up to be the ideal LE 10mm - except perhaps on internet forums.
  
We also learn that when it comes to the critical factor of wound volume, the .40/10mm/.45 ACP has a noticeably greater wound volume than the 9mm/.38 Special duo.  And they always will just because of the bigger diameter/heavier bullets they throw.  

When it comes to the .380 class, due to the lighter bullets in the small 9mm case, the .380 struggles to even come close to the 9mm/.38 because of its combination of velocity, bullet weight and penetration.  When it opens with HPs, it often lacks penetration - which adds to wound volume, and when the bullet is designed for penetration, the wound channel is very narrow - once again impacting wound volume negatively.  Everything here is a compromise.  Not to say that it can't work, but it doesn't give one the warm fuzzy feeling of confidence a .40 would.

THE FBI TESTS:  

   1. Bare Gelatin at 10 feet
   2. Heavy Clothing at 10 ft.
   3. Automotive sheet metal at 10 ft. (2 pieces of 20ga. hot rolled steel spaced 3" apart)
   4. Wall board at 10' (2 pieces of standard 1/2" wall board 3 1/2" apart)
   5. Plywood at 10 feet. One piece 3/4" AA fir plywood
   6. Automotive glass at 10 ft. (Standard windshield glass mounted at 45 deg angle)
   7. Light clothing at 20 yds.
   8. Automotive glass at 20 yards (shots fired from front otherwise same as #6 above)

All shots fired had to defeat the above obstacles AND penetrate 12" into a block of ballistic gelatin (except # 1 of course). The 12" was developed on anatomical averages, and failing to penetrate to that depth was considered a failure.

 FBI AMMUNITION TEST PERFORMANCE DATA

CAL  MAKER   BULLET  Wt.  GUN   BBL   VEL.  FPE   SUCCESS
                                                  
.45   Fed     HS     230  4506   5"   802   328fp   95%
.45   Rem     JHP    185  645    5"   903   334fp   95%
.45   Fed     HS     230  1911   5"   828   358fp   82%
.45   Fed     JHP    185  4506   5"   874   313fp   90%
.45   Fed     JHP    185  645    5"   953   373fp   57%
.45   Win     S-Tip  185  4506   5"   951   371fp   50%

10mm  Norma   JHP    170  Delta  5"  1358   696fp  100%
10mm  Fed     JHP    180  Delta  5"   931   346fp   95%
10mm  Win     JHP    180  Delta  5"   955   364fp   92%
10mm  IMP-3D  JHP    180  Delta  5"   991   392fp   92%
10mm  Buffalo Prfrg  191  Delta  5"   916   355fp   30%

.357  Fed     HS     158  M13    3"  1183   490fp  100%
.357  Win     JSP    158  M13    3"  1096   421fp   97%
.357  Win     S-Tip  145  M13    3"  1166   437fp   82%

38sp  Fed     HS     147  M13    3"   874   249fp   92%
38sp  Rem     LHP    158  M13    3"   871   266fp   67%
38sp  Fed     LHP    158  M13    3"   834   244fp   70%
38sp  Fed     HS     129  M13    3"   841   202fp   60%
38sp  Win     LHP    158  M13    3"   808   229fp   65%
38sp  Win     S-Tip  125  M13    3"   843   197fp   17%

380   Win     S-Tip   85  PPK    3"   954   171fp   20%

9mm   Fed     HS     147  226   4.25" 914   272fp   82%
9mm   Fed     HS     124  226   4.25" 1062  310fp   82%
9mm   Win     JHP    147  226   4.25" 902   265fp   62%
9mm   Win     S-Tip  115  226   4.25" 1091  303fp   35%

[galahad]

The FBI also wanted to go with a high-capacity semiauto pistol that would fit the majority of it's agent's hands and here the bigger .45 failed to make the cut, as there were no hi-cap .45 Autos at the time.  10mm wasn't much better either.  Both of these rounds suffer in length as well as diameter as far as making a gun smaller.  But in using the data they collected they realized that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps).

That is one "story" about the testing, however it is highly suspect.  What is suspected is that essentially the same thing happened to the 10mm as happened to the Jungle Carbine.  The agents didn't like it because they simply were unable to handle the recoil.  So, the "wandering zero" was used with the JC and the "too big for their hands" was used with the 10mm.   The result was the "wimp load" developed by the FBI and the subsequent 40S&W.

I guess everybody gets to believe what they want.  I believe that since the FBI very, very, very rarely uses firearms in the line of duty that they just wanted to get rid of the revolvers currently carried by agents and ended up choosing a pistol that the agents liked.  The numbers are accurate, the reasons for the selection are, in my opinion, dubious.

Where are the numbers for the .40 S&W in the chart above?

[Frisco Pete]

Where are the numbers for the .40 S&W in the chart above?

It wasn't invented when the tests detailed in the chart took place in 1989.

This was the research data that gave rise to the .40 S&W.  It was from the 1989 FBI Ammunition Test Protocol that was undertaken due to the FBI's perceived failure of the 9mm to sufficiently penetrate into human tissue. The firefight in Miami between eight FBI agents, and two armed men was the crisis that brought about these tests, the first really scientific evaluation of terminal ballistics.

The FBI's tests revealed that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps).  Therefore, while the adopted the rather new 10mm, after further testing, the specified FBI load was not the full power one, but the first listed because, as mentioned, the "10mm lite" load achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil of the full power load that made it easier for agent to hit with, and made for quicker shot-to-shot recovery times.

This was all well documented at the time of the 10mm FBI intro in the gun media.  I remember it very well because I was in that "hi-cap medium-frame 9mm vs. heavy large-frame .45" conundrum, and the 10mm really excited my imagination.  

Imagine my surprise when suddenly the hot news in the press was about how the FBI could have it's cake and eat it too,  because S&W realized it could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within its medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge - but in a hi-cap medium frame autopistol that would fit more agents hands better.  Considering that the FBI, and other agencies needed to equip a wide variety of shooters, including women, and also plain-clothes and undercover officers.  So a large-frame .45 or 10mm is not really an ideal CCW piece for obvious reasons.    

In 1990, the .40 S&W came out of the blue and the handgun world of the time reeled from the revelation.  I still have some of the original magazines detailing the whys and hows of this groundbreaking new round.  You have seen nothing like it in our day.  So that is why the .40 was not included in the original 1989 tests - it didn't exist - the tests laid the groundwork for the 10mm then 10mm FBI (lite) load, then logically lead to the .40 S&W as the next step in refinement.

I don't think you were a serious handgunner at the time because all of this seems to be news, but the 1980s was the era of the "Wondernine Wars" and 15-17 round 9mm pistols were the rage.  20 years later we take them for granted, but not only were they new, but new ones seemed to be introduced every couple of months.  Before that, the 9mm was mainly packaged in standard capacity pistols like the P-38, S&W M39.  The High-Power was a class leader in capacity and so was the S&W M59.  Sales were so-so in America before the '80s.  At the close of the '70s, I only knew a couple of shooters that had 9mms!  With the introduction of HP ammo, the 9mm suddenly was a better stopper than with the old ball, and much closer to the .45  When you could get 15 rounds of 9mm hollow point ammo in a DA gun, then the Wondernine exploded onto the scene, and guns like the High-Power that "only" held 13 rounds and were single-actions were became passe.  Firepower became a topic and there was a feeling that 6-shot revolver-toting cops were seriously outgunned by drug cartel types who tended to go for the Wondernines.  That is why in the 1980s, 9mm hi-cap DA sales exploded - and in fact created a mindset that is still with us today.  This is part of the "context" I mentioned in my previous post.

So in 1990 the FBI saw that the experimental "10mm Short" (40 S&W) could give them the exact same terminal performance as they were getting from their new 10mm FBI (lite) load chambered in the large frame S&W 1076, yet package it into a Wondernine-like high capacity, user-friendly package.  It was a no-brainer and the general gun media and law enforcement consensus was that a round that came so close to the proven .45 performance, yet one that could be put in a high capacity medium-frame package holding 13+ rounds was exactly the balance that LE was looking for.  When the current batch of hi-cap 9mms needed replacement, LE began to basically get the same pistol but in the new .40 caliber that was the result of the process recounted above.

Now the poor 10mm not only had been usurped from the holsters of the FBI and was seen to be less universal because of the large-frame it required.  To make matters worse, Colt's flagship Delta Elite 10mm 1911 soon got a reputation for breakage because of the high pressure of the 10mm round.  Delta Elite 10s were withdrawn from the market and only a few new 10mms arrived, most notably the tough high-capacity Glock 20.  But here again, the large frame necessary for a hi-cap 10mm (and .45) made the grip very large.  I know that my hands don't really fit the original G20/21 frame.  Therefore, departments who have to equip a variety of individuals just picked the proven medium-frame .40 G22/23.
Lastly, because of the high pressure battering issue and the FBI stating that a 10mm 170/180 at 900-1000 fps was all that was needed, most ammo makers seem to offer mostly 10mm ammo that is actually downloaded from the original spec.  This is kind of discouraging to hunters and others who are looking for a true ".40 Magnum" load.

You can look for hidden agendas, but those in charge of the tests, like FBI Firearms Training Unit, including Special Agent In Charge, John Hall, cooperating with S&W and Winchester, were really the driving force.  The Firearms Training  Unit concluded that 10mm "recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agent/police officer competency of use and qualification," and the pistols that chambered it were too large for some small-handed individuals.  So it came from the top after extensive evaluation.

The .40 S&W is not a negative step from the 10mm, but rather a positive step towards finding an ideal BALANCE in performance, usability, and capacity.  It's existence does not denigrate existing rounds like the 9mm Luger, 10mm or .45, but is the enlightened result of the greatest leap in scientifically quantifying terminal ballistic performance in the history of the handgun.  Bullets for all of our handgun cartridges like the 9mm and .45 were improved because of the 10mm/.40 S&W process.

The continuing story played out in the gun media certainly made getting the next magazine interesting, and sparked some good debates among my shooting buds.  Glad I was there      

[galahad]

Where are the numbers for the .40 S&W in the chart above?

It wasn't invented when the tests detailed in the chart took place in 1989.

This was the research data that gave rise to the .40 S&W.  It was from the 1989 FBI Ammunition Test Protocol that was undertaken due to the FBI's perceived failure of the 9mm to sufficiently penetrate into human tissue. The firefight in Miami between eight FBI agents, and two armed men was the crisis that brought about these tests, the first really scientific evaluation of terminal ballistics.

The FBI's tests revealed that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps).  Therefore, while the adopted the rather new 10mm, after further testing, the specified FBI load was not the full power one, but the first listed because, as mentioned, the "10mm lite" load achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil of the full power load that made it easier for agent to hit with, and made for quicker shot-to-shot recovery times. 

  Right, they downloaded it because, bottom line, it was too much gun for the "wimpy" FBI agents.  Because they couldn't really say that it was "too much gun" they said that the grip was too large.  Frankly I think that's just plain BS.  If they had said that it was "too much gun" they would have created a "thug market" all by themselves as well as the "wimp load" term.

Imagine my surprise when suddenly the hot news in the press was about how the FBI could have it's cake and eat it too,  because S&W realized it could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within its medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge - but in a hi-cap medium frame autopistol that would fit more agents hands better.  Considering that the FBI, and other agencies needed to equip a wide variety of shooters, including women, and also plain-clothes and undercover officers.  So a large-frame .45 or 10mm is not really an ideal CCW piece for obvious reasons.    

  Yup, it was a great CYA activity.  When the agents decided that they couldn't handle the normal load, they created the wimp load, then when they came up with the other excuse "too big" they started over and created an entirely new gun.  The fact remains that if the drug thugs in Miami had had the 10mm factory load they would STILL have outgunned the FBI with either the wimp load or the .40 S&W.  But the agents were happy so the FBI was happy. 

In 1990, the .40 S&W came out of the blue and the handgun world of the time reeled from the revelation.  I still have some of the original magazines detailing the whys and hows of this groundbreaking new round.  You have seen nothing like it in our day.  So that is why the .40 was not included in the original 1989 tests - it didn't exist - the tests laid the groundwork for the 10mm then 10mm FBI (lite) load, then logically lead to the .40 S&W as the next step in refinement.

I don't think you were a serious handgunner at the time because all of this seems to be news, but the 1980s was the era of the "Wondernine Wars" and 15-17 round 9mm pistols were the rage.  20 years later we take them for granted, but not only were they new, but new ones seemed to be introduced every couple of months.  Before that, the 9mm was mainly packaged in standard capacity pistols like the P-38, S&W M39.  The High-Power was a class leader in capacity and so was the S&W M59.  Sales were so-so in America before the '80s.  At the close of the '70s, I only knew a couple of shooters that had 9mms!  With the introduction of HP ammo, the 9mm suddenly was a better stopper than with the old ball, and much closer to the .45  When you could get 15 rounds of 9mm hollow point ammo in a DA gun, then the Wondernine exploded onto the scene, and guns like the High-Power that "only" held 13 rounds and were single-actions were became passe.  Firepower became a topic and there was a feeling that 6-shot revolver-toting cops were seriously outgunned by drug cartel types who tended to go for the Wondernines.  That is why in the 1980s, 9mm hi-cap DA sales exploded - and in fact created a mindset that is still with us today.  This is part of the "context" I mentioned in my previous post.

So in 1990 the FBI saw that the experimental "10mm Short" (40 S&W) could give them the exact same terminal performance as they were getting from their new 10mm FBI (lite) load chambered in the large frame S&W 1076, yet package it into a Wondernine-like high capacity, user-friendly package.  It was a no-brainer and the general gun media and law enforcement consensus was that a round that came so close to the proven .45 performance, yet one that could be put in a high capacity medium-frame package holding 13+ rounds was exactly the balance that LE was looking for.  When the current batch of hi-cap 9mms needed replacement, LE began to basically get the same pistol but in the new .40 caliber that was the result of the process recounted above. 

  Not exactly.  Remember that the WHOLE PURPOSE of the exercise was to equip the FBI with a firearm that assured that they wouldn't be outgunned by the drug thugs.  They haven't done that.  They have compromised.  And, evidently, they haven't published the results of exactly the same testing for the .40 as the did for all the other rounds. 

Now the poor 10mm not only had been usurped from the holsters of the FBI and was seen to be less universal because of the large-frame it required.  To make matters worse, Colt's flagship Delta Elite 10mm 1911 soon got a reputation for breakage because of the high pressure of the 10mm round.  Delta Elite 10s were withdrawn from the market and only a few new 10mms arrived, most notably the tough high-capacity Glock 20.  But here again, the large frame necessary for a hi-cap 10mm (and .45) made the grip very large.  I know that my hands don't really fit the original G20/21 frame.  Therefore, departments who have to equip a variety of individuals just picked the proven medium-frame .40 G22/23.
Lastly, because of the high pressure battering issue and the FBI stating that a 10mm 170/180 at 900-1000 fps was all that was needed, most ammo makers seem to offer mostly 10mm ammo that is actually downloaded from the original spec.  This is kind of discouraging to hunters and others who are looking for a true ".40 Magnum" load.

You can look for hidden agendas, but those in charge of the tests, like FBI Firearms Training Unit, including Special Agent In Charge, John Hall, cooperating with S&W and Winchester, were really the driving force.  The Firearms Training  Unit concluded that 10mm "recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agent/police officer competency of use and qualification[/i]," and the pistols that chambered it were too large for some small-handed individuals.  So it came from the top after extensive evaluation.

  Now we get to the REAL reason they didn't stay with the 10mm.  We had come to expect that FBI agents were not "average," they were the cream of the cream, the finest men and women that existed in law enforcement.  The fact is that they are, indeed, "average" in the use of their firearm and most still shoot exactly as much as is required to stay qualified. 

The .40 S&W is not a negative step from the 10mm, but rather a positive step towards finding an ideal BALANCE in performance, usability, and capacity.  It's existence does not denigrate existing rounds like the 9mm Luger, 10mm or .45, but is the enlightened result of the greatest leap in scientifically quantifying terminal ballistic performance in the history of the handgun.  Bullets for all of our handgun cartridges like the 9mm and .45 were improved because of the 10mm/.40 S&W process.

The continuing story played out in the gun media certainly made getting the next magazine interesting, and sparked some good debates among my shooting buds.  Glad I was there      

You are right, I absolutely was NOT into pistols when all this happened.   But the FBI and others acknowledge that they selected, as you say, BALANCE, not the thug killer that they originally were insistent on.  "Balance" is another word used when the word "compromise" isn't desirable.  Frankly, the insistence that all FBI agents carry the same firearm is idiotic.  Just as I, and probably you, carry different firearms under different conditions so should those involved in law enforcement.  And they should be required to be MORE than simply proficient in each and every gun that they carry, they should be able to qualify at no less than Expert. 

I think the bottom line is that I expect more from law enforcement than most people.  I expect them to WORK HARD on the basics of their profession, and that would include firearms.  I don't expect individuals or the leadership to strive for "balance," I expect them to strive for nothing short of excellence. 

[Michigander]

That is one "story" about the testing, however it is highly suspect.  What is suspected is that essentially the same thing happened to the 10mm as happened to the Jungle Carbine.  The agents didn't like it because they simply were unable to handle the recoil.  So, the "wandering zero" was used with the JC and the "too big for their hands" was used with the 10mm.   The result was the "wimp load" developed by the FBI and the subsequent 40S&W.

In my experience, small framed women have no trouble at all handling a Glock 20C, and they don't seem to kick worse than a 1911, even with ammo that pushes the limits of the design. If Glock would make them available with interchangeable backstraps, it would become the near perfect handgun for anyone who doesn't have the smallest of hands or hands that don't agree with the shape. And even then, a single stack version would work very well.

I consider the 10mm to be THE perfect handgun cartridge for a service size pistol, with an honorable mention to the more brutally pressured 460 Rowland. The fact it isn't used by cops across the country and military's around the world puzzles me.

[docbuckhead]

galahad wrote:

I think the bottom line is that I expect more from law enforcement than most people.  I expect them to WORK HARD on the basics of their profession, and that would include firearms.  I don't expect individuals or the leadership to strive for "balance," I expect them to strive for nothing short of excellence. 

And I agree......but all of that costs money, and time.

Cops usually don't have a great deal of extra time, as they must, in addition to simply "doing the job", attend Court, as well.

Many, due to the pay scales, must work off-duty jobs to maintain a decent income.

And with that, it is somewhat rare that the "average" individual police officer has the time or money to push the envelope of firearms training and excellence.

Further, as Departments run on budgets and manpower allocations, there is little time or funds for the street cop to be taken out of patrol rotation, and little money to pay for OT or for ammo, as to allow for the level of firearms training that, IMO, would be preferred.

LEO's in the USA are pretty competent with their sidearm, and perhaps a long gun or two. I'd say more so than the average competent CCW'er.

However, most are no where near expert with any weapon, unless they receive SWAT type training, or unless they make the investment of time and money, paid for by themselves, to reach that level of competency.


-----------------------------
Michigander wrote:

I consider the 10mm to be THE perfect handgun cartridge for a service size pistol, with an honorable mention to the more brutally pressured 460 Rowland. The fact it isn't used by cops across the country and military's around the world puzzles me.

As the 10mm provides no true advantage in the real world ....being that one must balance power, weight, size, ergonomics, controllability....over service calibers such as 9mm+p, .40S&W, .357 Mag, or .45ACP, personally, I am not puzzled at all that the 10mm is not in widespread use in LE.

In fact, I would be extremely surprised if it where.

That said, in a "carry-able"  / concealable firearm, a Glock 20 is likely the most powerful and capacious sidearm extant.

This does not however, IMO, make it the perfect service pistol, as improperly placed shots from a super powerful gun offer no advantage over properly placed shots from just a powerful gun.

Speed, accuracy, and power all are part of the mix in winning.

[thespork]

This does not however, IMO, make it the perfect service pistol, as improperly placed shots from a super powerful gun offer no advantage over properly placed shots from just a powerful gun.

that's just it. a .40SandW is going to make a 40 caliber sized hole (actually a little larger with JHPs) in one side of a human being and out the other. A 10mm will do the same thing..

A 10mm plainly would be better for hunting large game, so maybe if you need 2 and 4 legged protection out of the same pistol, but that's uncommon.

Neither a .40sw or a 10mm go fast enough to get the kind of shock effect seen with a rifle bullet.
A 10mm might go through a few more layers of kevlar, but a good vest will stop either.

I don't care how much of a billy bad azz somebody thinks they are.. Less recoil = faster follow ups.

If one is feeling "out gunned" with a modern .40SandW loading out of a full sized service pistol, it's time for something with a stock, not another pistol.

[galahad]

galahad wrote:

I think the bottom line is that I expect more from law enforcement than most people.  I expect them to WORK HARD on the basics of their profession, and that would include firearms.  I don't expect individuals or the leadership to strive for "balance," I expect them to strive for nothing short of excellence. 

And I agree......but all of that costs money, and time.

Cops usually don't have a great deal of extra time, as they must, in addition to simply "doing the job", attend Court, as well.

Many, due to the pay scales, must work off-duty jobs to maintain a decent income.

And with that, it is somewhat rare that the "average" individual police officer has the time or money to push the envelope of firearms training and excellence.

Further, as Departments run on budgets and manpower allocations, there is little time or funds for the street cop to be taken out of patrol rotation, and little money to pay for OT or for ammo, as to allow for the level of firearms training that, IMO, would be preferred.

LEO's in the USA are pretty competent with their sidearm, and perhaps a long gun or two. I'd say more so than the average competent CCW'er.

However, most are no where near expert with any weapon, unless they receive SWAT type training, or unless they make the investment of time and money, paid for by themselves, to reach that level of competency.

  All points well taken.  But consider that most folks who carry firearms practice on their own time AND pay for their own ammo AND pay for range time.  Most police have their own private ranges and are provided with practice ammo in any reasonable quantity.  As for their expertise, I was just reading the other day that eight out of ten shots fired by police at suspects miss them completely.  That's a far cry from what we should require as each of those eight shots is going to hit something, or somebody.

But remember that all this testing was done by the FBI for the FBI, and the FBI is not underpaid.  And further they really are supposed to be the cream of the crop.  They are supposed to be trained to the max and have their own dedicated training facilities. 

This does not however, IMO, make it the perfect service pistol, as improperly placed shots from a super powerful gun offer no advantage over properly placed shots from just a powerful gun. 

  I guess it's all in the definitions.  I don't consider the 10mm "super" powerful and don't personally have any difficulty shooting it.  When compared to the .357 Magnum it's a pussycat. 

And I don't know if this is true with anybody but me but when I'm shooting a 9mm I tend to shoot off more rounds more quickly than with the 10mm.  The "spray and pray" mentality seems to hold true with handguns as well as FA rifles.  With the 10mm you know that you're going to feel the shot so you take just that fraction of a second longer to make sure that it's going to go where you want it to.  With the 9mm it's "If I miss this one I'll just take another shot."  Could be just me though. 

Speed, accuracy, and power all are part of the mix in winning.

No argument with that!!  The problem seems to be that there are compromises made such that whomever is choosing the gun will pick two out of the three elements and stress them above the third. 

[Michigander]

Neither a .40sw or a 10mm go fast enough to get the kind of shock effect seen with a rifle bullet.

There is a large difference between temporary wound channel expansion, and a heavier HP bullet going faster and more reliably expanding in a really devastating manner. It's entirely irrelevant for the purpose of just about any sidearm that might be carried responsibly.

I've brought it up many times before. My wet phone book tests have shown me that 10mm HP ammo loaded to the limits of pressure will outperform my .45 XTP reloads significantly, and even outperform hp x39 factory ammo from Russia. It outclasses .40 almost as much as 9mm para outclasses .380.

Speed, accuracy, and power all are part of the mix in winning.

I know I'm the less experienced one here, so I am certainly not trying to argue with what you're saying, but I should make it clear that in my experiences, G20C's are at least as manageable as most polymer .45's which aren't compensated. I have yet to see anyone, other than a first day shooter with few shots downrange, experience any significant difficulty at shooting 10mm out of a G20C, and this most certainly includes lots of rapid fire, since rapid fire is about 95% of my practice shooting with handguns. But again, limited experiences, so I'm not trying to claim this as fact.

Also, as I have brought up before, about the x25 FMJ round that shot me, had it been a 10mm HP bullet, I easily could have ended up losing half of my leg because it probably would have blown my knee cap apart, instead of having a neat little hole through my tibia which was relative to the incident, easy to have fixed. It is a crystal clear example of a hit which would be a one shot stop with the proper caliber and ammo, and in the few seconds of a hypothetical shootout, quite meaningless with a teensy little round, and perhaps or perhaps not result in a stop with a moderate round.

[Frisco Pete]

The situation is analogous to a phenomenon that happen in 1972 after the movie "Dirty Harry" came out.  Young police officers saw that big effective Model 29 .44 Magnum used by Clint and just had to have a more powerful gun.  It was way more powerful right?  The .44 Mag certain is a lot more powerful than the .357s and +P .38s they were using.  So the rush was on and you couldn't find a Model 29 on dealers shelves for a couple of years.
However eventually the cops using the Model 29 realized that it was really heavy to pack, the .44 Mag hard to get back on target for a quick second shot (Clint seems to have plenty of time, so this is not a problem in the movie!) - and worst of all, didn't seem to be any more effective than the .357 Mag.  Why?  Because the power was basically wasted out the other side of the perp.  Humans are only so thick, so you need to get only X amount of penetration and have the wound cavity in the main part of the body.  The .44 Mag of the time would penetrate through easily and not really open up quickly.  So stops were no better than a "less powerful" or wimpy round, but the drawbacks (weight, recovery time) were always there.  Once again we have to look at balance.  However take them big game hunting where the addition penetration is needed, and the story reverses.

...evidently, they haven't published the results of exactly the same testing for the .40 as the did for all the other rounds.

Once again, the test results I posted were from 1989 before the 1990 introduction of the .40 S&W.  But there is a scientific ballistic truism involved here.  If you take a bullet of the same caliber and weight in one cartridge case and load it to the same velocity in another cartridge case, the results as to terminal and all other ballistics are the same.  In other words, you can down load a .300 Win Mag with a 150-gr bullet to the velocity of a .308 (or even .30-30) with the same bullet, and the terminal ballistics results are the exact same.  That is why they knew what the .40 would do before it was "invented".  A 10mm bullet loaded to X velocity gives the same ballistic results irregardless of the case it was fired from.  And the tests are on-going as illustrated by the FBI adoption of the Win PDX1 165-gr load recently.

And that is why the "less powerful" .40 S&W works virtually as well as the 10mm.  As I have mentioned, ad infinitum  it is designed to perform within a very specific and relatively narrow performance window, defined by the FBI/DOJ ballistics testing protocols - and cut the over-the-top, wasted out the other side, .44 Mag-reminiscent, part out.  In the last few years they have fined tuned the .40 ammo further for use on people even further and the FBI now uses the 165-grain Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 also sold as Ranger Bonded.  The Bonded PDX1 is engineered to maximize terminal ballistics, as defined by the demanding FBI test protocol, which simulates real-world threats.  This round has a muzzle velocity of 1140 fps.  The 10mm Winchester Silvertip 175-grain goes 1290 for comparison.  That's 8.6% faster and only 10 grains heavier.  Not a huge difference really when you look at it that way.  With equal bullets and placement, it would be hard to notice the difference don't you think?  
BTW - this PDX1 round is available in .380 and the bonded core allows superior expansion and penetration because it keeps the core and jacket together.  So it is a good mouse gun load.  Even better in a 9mm Luger and up.

Remember that the WHOLE PURPOSE of the exercise was to equip the FBI with a firearm that assured that they wouldn't be outgunned by the drug thugs.  They haven't done that.  They have compromised

Not really, they got enough power in a high capacity pistol.  The tests showed a noticeable terminal ballistic improvement over the issue 9mm of the 1989 era, with effectiveness very close to the proven .45.  Pistol capacity was a major issue.  The S&W 1076 held 9 rounds of 10mm (extended mags were available to the agents also) while the FBI issue Glocks have up to 15 rounds of .40 - but the big G20 also holds 15 rounds, albeit in a bigger package - but was not available in 1990.  Still, it is very doubtful whether the G20 would have changed things, because in the opinion of the FBI and virtually every other major LE consumer, the .40 does everything they require.  It really isn't any dark conspiracy or CYA stuff that made the .40 S&W the caliber of choice for nearly 3/4 of all agencies big and small, Federal or local.  20 years later it is a well-proven package, and the FBI still uses it.

...G20C's are at least as manageable as most polymer .45's which aren't compensated.

It's the COMPENSATOR part that makes it undesirable for LE use.  Because deadly encounters often occur after dark, the big upward flash from the compensator is perceived to hinder an officer's vision.  Especially considering the amount of powder the big case 10mm burns.  I'm not totally sold on this how big an issue this is myself, but most agencies want flash minimized, and compensators aren't going to help here.  They certainly would be loathe to equip themselves with a cartridge that demands a compensator to make it user-friendly.  These are pretty pragmatic people here.  

With the .40/9mm frame, and agency adopting a Glock, for example, can use the full-size G22, compact G23, or subcompact G27 to fit all needs from uniformed service revolver, to detective use, to covert undercover use - all with the same manual-of-arms and even magazine interchangeability as far as the bigger mags can go in the smaller guns.  Even the subcompact holds 9+1 of .40, which makes it very potent for its size.  All this is very attractive for a law enforcement agency and its trainers.
 
The large frame size of the 1076 or G20 have an ergonomic issue is more significant than many realize. Law enforcement officer trainers often stage weak-hand only drills to replicate the wounding of one's strong hand, or shooting around a barricade from cover. Large butt sections that may feel fine when shooting two-handed strong side may become more than a bit clumsy when your weak hand has to do the grasping and trigger squeeze with a big grip DA gun.

I understand that pistol owners are big fans of what they own, but just because they didn't pick the powerful and proven .45 Auto because I own 3 of them, or stick with a 9mm and upgrade the bullets because others own those.  Or use the uber effective .357 Mag doesn't make it a dark conspiracy or that they short-changed their agents in killing power when didn't go with with the 10mm.  They made an intelligent decision that fit their needs as they saw them in 1990, and one which has proven itself over time.

On the other hand, the discontinued S&W 1076 would be a really interesting 10mm autopistol to own.  They were a big, tough 40 oz gun that are good shooters.  They are supposed to be more recoil-friendly than a 10mm 1911 as well.  DA pull at 12 pounds is not my cup of tea, but practiced DA shooters should do fine, and the single-action "range" trigger pull is supposed to be quite good.  Although their tenure was really short, they are a fascinating part of history.

    

[tim4720]

I had the good fortune to shoot a friend's new G20 last weekend back to back with my 9mm.  I was stunned to find that the 10mm didn't recoil very much.  As Galahad already mentioned, I found that I took my time and aimed more carefully between shots than I do with my 9mm.  I was firing full power hand loaded ammo and I had no trouble handling the mighty 10mm with my average-size hands.  It was a big gun but not a lot bigger than my full size 9mm.  If the ammo wasn't $1/rd, I'd buy one right now.  I shot a .40 that day too and if money were no object, I'd pick the 10mm over it too.  The 10 will travel through sheet metal, glass and body armor and still do its job.  It's not the kind of gun one would choose to pick off a single bad guy in a crowded place without harming anyone else but then, I'm not an assassin so that isn't a problem.  If I were a cop or FBI agent, I'd want one for sure--the bad guy might be carrying a 10mm too!

[galahad]

I was firing full power hand loaded ammo and I had no trouble handling the mighty 10mm with my average-size hands. 

Yup, me either.  I think that the FBI dumping it has created a whole mystique about it being a "super gun" and "overkill."   It's a healthy round but by no means a "super" round.    I am absolutely willing to concede that the .44 Mag is, perhaps, the start of the "super round" category and is difficult for me to handle.  I'm working on it though and getting better all the time. 

So the numbers below are calculated based on whatever and are only slightly related to "felt recoil."  My little .38 Special has a felt recoil greater than the .45ACP out of the RIA 1911.   The 10mm out of the Kimber is only a bit more than either of the others.  The "two finger" grip on the .38 just adds to the felt recoil as the tendency is to grip the gun much more firmly thereby transferring more recoil into my hand. 

So, understanding that my source of "felt recoil" is my own personal experience, backed by no scientific evidence, feel free to discount it to worthless information. 

         
   Cartridge    Muzzle energy   
                    ft-lbf    joules
   .38 Special      310     420
   9 mm Luger    350   470
   .45 Colt            370   500
   .45 GAP          400   540
   .45 ACP            400   540
   .40 S&W          425   576
   .357 Sig          475   644
   .357 Mag            550   750
   10mm Auto      650   880
   .44 Mag         1,000   1,400
   .50 AE           1,500   2,000
   .454 Casull     1,900   2,600
   .460 SW          2,400   3,300
   .500 SW          2,600   3,500
         

[prodgi]

sure blame me for starting all of this